Dodgers Young Pitching

[Blarg]

1 hour ago, Spin Rate said:

P00zy got pwned.

P00zy went at IP like Custer at Little Bighorn. 

Same result.

[Warfarin]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

For all his excellence as an exec, the drafts while he was GM in TB were generally very bad..   With LA he's had their massive player development team and that's made for a huge difference but the track record in TB was dubious at best outside of what people would consider to be easy picks (top 5 draft choices).

Friedman took over the TB GM position in 2005 at which point they had finished dead last in their division 8 times.  From 1999-2002 prior to his joining the franchise they picked 1-1, 1-8, 1-3, 1-2.  Upon becoming president of player development they drafted 1-1, 1-4, then as GM they drafted 1-3, 1-1, 1-1.   That's 9 drafts, FOUR where they picked 1st overall, THREE more where they picked no lower than 3rd, then one where they picked fourth and finally one where they picked 8th. 

Finally in 2008, the Rays break out of last place and are forced to draft outside of the top 8.   How did they do? 

Levon Washington* (09) 
Josh Sale* (10) 
Taylor Guereri (11)
Richie Shaffer (12)
Nick Ciuffo (13)
Casey Gillispie* (14).   

Three of those guys never made it out of the minors, the other two -- one is in Indy ball, the other has a career OPS of .529.   But thats just the top pick of each year and not every first rounder -- the Rays failures in the 2011 draft are legendary...

But here's a quick recap.

2009 -- They saw none of the first ten make it to MLB, and only 1 of the top 20 that actually signed with them.   Andrew Bellati.  Dylan Floro chose not to sign and was drafted again by Tampa Bay in 2012
2010 -- They had three first round picks 17, 31, 42,in Sale, Justin O"Connor, Drew Vettleson and two second rounders -- Derek Dietrich and Jake Thompson.   None of their 1st rounders made it to MLB and only Dietrich made it as a Reds player.
2011 -- They had TEN first and supplemental first rounders.   TEN of the first 60 picks in the draft..   Six of them never made it to MLB.  Of the four that did make it, it was the 6th one taken that turned out to be the bet of the lot -- Blake Snell.  Taylor Guereri, Mike Mahtook, and Tyler Goedel all basically busted.  All told they had 12 of the first 89 picks and the only thing they have to show for it still is Blake Snell -- that casts the Angels 2010 draft in a different light eh?
2012 -- Four of their top 20 made it to MLB -- of those Luke Maile 8th round, Joey Rickard 9th round, and Dylan Floro 13th.
2013 -- Both of their 1st rounders made, one of them good Stanek, the other one not good, Shaffer.   This is maybe their best draft under AF, with Johnny Field, Kean Wong, Roel Ramirez Jaime Schultz and Austin Pruitt having made it to MLB among their top 20 draft and signings.
2014 -- Among the top 20, only Brock Burke 3rd, and Braxton Lee 12th made it among the top 20.

Friedman's strength isn't farm systems it's asset management.   He's great at taking what he has and getting more or better from someone else.

Sure, and all of this is a valid and fair criticism of him.

But that said, he did make that team competitive despite not having great drafts and he did build the infrastructure of that team such that he made them a rather good, respectable franchise, a la the A's.

The Rays, at this point, have arguably the best minor league system in baseball, so the hope is we'd poach someone from them who played a role in building that.

[NrM]

21 minutes ago, Blarg said:

P00zy went at IP like Custer at Little Bighorn. 

Same result.

I made a drunk 4 am post that took all of 3 minutes and he had to come and murder me. Like wtf. The political forum is more fun. Not as many smart people over there

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

 

Friedman's strength isn't farm systems it's asset management.   He's great at taking what he has and getting more or better from someone else.

and he either left a strong template for how to do this or someone else behind the scenes was also very very good at it or both.  

the current roster has the following mix;

2B - Brandon Lowe - drafted in 2015.  third round
OF - Kevin Kiermaier - drafted in 2010.  31st round
SP - Blake Snell - drafted in 2011 - 1st round (52nd overall)
RP - Shane McClanahan - drafted in 2018.  1st round (31 overall)
LR - Josh Fleming - drafted in 2017.  5th round.  

An intl FA from Japan (bench role)
A SP (Morton) free agent
A UDFA on the bench
two AFA's in the pen
A RP free agent
A rule 5 draft RP 

7 of the 9 in their starting lineup were trades
3 of the 5 players on their bench were trades
2 of the 4 SP listed were trades
2 of the 10 RP were trades

Also of note is that they have gone heavy in the AFA market and did so before the rules changed spending a ton of their budget (on a relative basis) on those players.  
 

[Inside Pitch]

4 minutes ago, NrM said:

There's a lot to respond to here. I'll just take it on the chin and move on. You didn't like how Dipoto was open to the media. You don't know what the org was going through under eppler because they were very closed nit. 

All I read was speculation on your part. It's clear you loved Eppler as a GM.

I love how the one thing you chose to respond to was something I didn't even mention.  JD's penchant for media whoring and sucking up to the fanbase.  Something you fell for and I saw through..  it was all his blathering and cheap talk that made me question him very early in his run as GM.   

Nothing I have ever said about Eppler here requires inside information -- I have faulted him for his mistakes, praised him for what he did well.  If you want to interpret my ability to see the good he did as being more than that -- fine by me, you've shown yourself incapable of being unbiased.   Eppler was a world better at GMing the Angels than the guy he replaced.  

Keep on Beliebing, Poozy.

[Docwaukee]

1 minute ago, NrM said:

I made a drunk 4 am post that took all of 3 minutes and he had to come and murder me. Like wtf. The political forum is more fun. Not as many smart people over there

this is IP.  in case someone hasn't noticed.  

[NrM]

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

I love how the one thing you chose to respond to was something I didn't even mention.  JD's penchant for media whoring and sucking up to the fanbase.  Something you fell for and I saw through..  it was all his blathering and cheap talk that made me question him very early in his run as GM.   

Nothing I have ever said about Eppler here requires inside information -- I have faulted him for his mistakes, praised him for what he did well.  If you want to interpret my ability to see the good he did as being more than that -- fine by me, you've shown yourself incapable of being unbiased.   Eppler was a world better at GMing the Angels than the guy he replaced.  

Keep on Beliebing, Poozy.

Please stop. I only want to argue with stupid people like me.

At this point I'm going to report you for bullying the disabled.

Edit: I met Dipoto at the Airport once and he was super friendly. Even said good things about Angelswin and let me take a picture. So yea maybe I am a belieber.

[Inside Pitch]

4 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

and he either left a strong template for how to do this or someone else behind the scenes was also very very good at it or both.  

the current roster has the following mix;

2B - Brandon Lowe - drafted in 2015.  third round
OF - Kevin Kiermaier - drafted in 2010.  31st round
SP - Blake Snell - drafted in 2011 - 1st round (52nd overall)
RP - Shane McClanahan - drafted in 2018.  1st round (31 overall)
LR - Josh Fleming - drafted in 2017.  5th round.  

An intl FA from Japan (bench role)
A SP (Morton) free agent
A UDFA on the bench
two AFA's in the pen
A RP free agent
A rule 5 draft RP 

7 of the 9 in their starting lineup were trades
3 of the 5 players on their bench were trades
2 of the 4 SP listed were trades
2 of the 10 RP were trades

Also of note is that they have gone heavy in the AFA market and did so before the rules changed spending a ton of their budget (on a relative basis) on those players.  
 

I think they may have seen a bit of a talent drain on the player dev side early in his tenure..  Nothing he did personally mind you, just scouts moving around to other organizations and the sort...   We stole Eddie Bane from them in 2003 or 2004.   That sort of thing.     

My point wasn't to say he isn't the best GM in the business so much as to point out the draft was maybe the area he's had the least success with.  To be honest, I think that's probably true of most GMs...   But whatever the reasons for it they had a bit of a lull there draft wise.   He's easily the best GM in the game and the systems he put in place have been proven effective time and again...  He's been smart enough to have trusted the player development people in place in LA -- that alone scores a lot of points with me.

 

 

[Stradling]

10 minutes ago, NrM said:

Please stop. I only want to argue with stupid people like me.

At this point I'm going to report you for bullying the disabled.

Edit: I met Dipoto at the Airport once and he was supper friendly. Even said good things about Angelswin and let me take a picture. So yea maybe I am a belieber.

The good news is there are plenty of people that fit this description.  

[Inside Pitch]

39 minutes ago, NrM said:

Please stop. I only want to argue with stupid people like me.

At this point I'm going to report you for bullying the disabled.

You're just twitterpated.  You still got it for Jerry...  We all did.... you weren't alone.  

We can hug it out now.

[Inside Pitch]

39 minutes ago, Blarg said:

P00zy went at IP like Custer at Little Bighorn. 

Same result.

Jerry Dipoto is actually the reincarnation of Custer..   Trust me on this one...  I'll make up a source for it later.

[Inside Pitch]

42 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

Sure, and all of this is a valid and fair criticism of him.

Not even a criticism -- I think the MLB draft is effing hard.   It's just the one area that they didn't really do well at while he was there.  He was still smart enough to trade the guys he had for better, or in many cases for guys who would give him another pick.   Dude did an exceptional job of giving himself more chances by virtue of more picks.   This is yet another reason why we as fans can't just look at prospect rankings and think they are the end all be all.

Like I said in a previous post -- a great GM would be great, but great infrastructure would be even better.   AF is the king of this.   They can both hire a guy to do that and someone to work on the farm system.  I hope Arte does.

[rafibomb]

Like IP said, we NEED to invest more in analytics and player development.

Edited October 19, 2020 by rafibomb

[Warfarin]

3 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Not even a criticism -- I think the MLB draft is effing hard.   It's just the one area that they didn't really do well at while he was there.  He was still smart enough to trade the guys he had for better, or in many cases for guys who would give him another pick.   Dude did an exceptional job of giving himself more chances by virtue of more picks.   This is yet another reason why we as fans can't just look at prospect rankings and think they are the end all be all.

Like I said in a previous post -- a great GM would be great, but great infrastructure would be even better.   AF is the king of this.   They can both hire a guy to do that and someone to work on the farm system.  I hope Arte does.

Absolutely.  I think the best thing any organization can do is expand its FO infrastructure and build.  And yeah, AF is king of this.  He started it in TB, then went to the Dodgers, who gave him as much money as he needed to build that ridiculous juggernaut.

People criticize them for spending money, but their payroll has actually gone done pretty consistently since Friedman has been in charge.  He's made that team very efficient, rarely signs awful long-term deals (just awful short-term ones), and seemingly has a good eye when it comes to trading the "right prospects" - those who go on to be solid players, but not stars, as he retains the stars for his own team.

[Angel Oracle]

Arte Moreno needs to wake up and join the 21st century!!

Or, more and more people will be wanting him to sell the team.  Hey, he would still have the stadium and land, which is his true area of expertise.

Imagine how many baseball savvy FO folks could have been hired in 2013 for just part of Hackilton’s $125 million.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Angel Oracle

[Angelsjunky]

11 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

I apologize for a response that will come off as possibly elitist or overly harsh but sometimes people say things so utterly stupid I don't really know how to respond other than to point out their glaring ignorance. 

First, I'm talking about investing in analytics and player development, not the actual results of those things. 

There is no question the Angels have budgeted more, spent more, and put a greater emphasis on those areas under Eppler than they did Dipoto or that they have more closely followed saber tendencies than at at point under JD.  This is true despite the fact that JD sold himself as a card carrying member of SABR and Eppler downplayed his expertise in the area -- which is possibly why he quadrupled the analytics dept.  Unlike JD, Eppler knew he needed to find better, more qualified people to make those decisions.  And yet having said all that I previously went on record in the "What three things would you do if you were hired to be the GM" thread as focusing solely on adding to the player dev and analytics departments...  Meaning that despite believing Eppler improved those areas, I feel he could have done more.   It's the single most cost effective way to improve a franchise.   

As far as there not being much to indicate the farm has improved at all, you'll have a hard time finding anyone with an actual clue that extends beyond prospect rankings that would agree with you.

Your lack of insight outside of what the rankings tell you doesn't make for any false narratives -- it simply means you don't have any clue other than what you can find online and the most basic of "metrics."

Rankings tend to be all over the place depending on who is reviewing them and what their focus is, as such I have never put a lot of weight in them -- even when they propped the Angels up.  You've got tools sites, you've got saber sites, you've got proximity sites, you have FG's attempt at gauging future value ... they all measure and give credence to different things and make for differing opinions.   Rankings are also dependent players having graduated meaning they are always in flux which is why you see "prospect rankings" three or four times a year now.   The single biggest issue when looking at the Angels (ranking wise), is the overall youth of the farm system -- you have a ton of guys on the right side of the age .vs league argument and that tends to temper their results at times. 

Still, since you put so much weight in rankings -- here are a couple reminders for you..  https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/los-angeles-angels-top-10-prospects/   The best part of this list is that the guy responsible for signing Barria was fired by JD almost immediately after taking over.   The MLB top 30 isn't much better http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2015?list=ana   Thank god for David Fletcher!.   Zero top 100 guys .vs 3 currently.  Don't look now but Packy Naughton might have been in the conversation for the top prospect in the system in 2015.  

Even if all one does is focus on the rankings...  The massive difference between then and now is that the Angels were universally ranked dead last -- didn't matter where you looked it was 29 teams, 6 miles of shit, and then the Angels.   That simply isn't the case any longer, to argue otherwise is nuts.   If there is one area of real concern with the farm now that was evident then it's the lack of catching and that is 100% on Eppler's view of the position and saber leanings

LOL..    If you had actually bothered to read any of my criticisms about JD it had almost nothing to do with where the Angels farm system ranked, I focused on his actual actions.

I blamed JD for creating dysfunction, for constantly leaking shit to the press, notice how that BS magically stopped as soon as he left -- almost as magically as it started when he got here.  I accused him of saying one thing then doing another when it came to sabermetric/baseball decisions.  I blamed him for focusing solely on high floor low ceiling players in the draft.  I blamed him for spending assets on RPs and for trading away international money while continuing to ignore the market as a whole.  I will continue to blame him for creating a mess it has taken years to reverse.  Feel free to show me where Eppler is guilty of any of the same things and then we can start to talk.   "But the rankings"... Giggity!

The next GM of the Angels won't be taking over a team with black holes at C, 2B, 3B, or LF and 7 more years of AP..   They won't find a farm system lacking upside at every level or handcuffed by bad financial decisions.   The next GM of the Angels won't have to spend the first three years of his tenue simply trying to correct his predecessor's mistakes just to get back to ground zero.  The next GM of the Angels will have Eppler to thank, and not blame.   There is a huge difference there, I'm sorry some can't see it.

I look forward to revisiting this thread in 5 years to see how well our differing opinions will have fared.

Somehow I missed this post the first time around. Good stuff. I remember a couple years ago, those of us who hang out in the prospects forum were all pleasantly surprised and in agreement about how quickly the farm system turned around from being utterly dearth of promising talent, to having a bunch of guys with something interesting about them.

For me the most disappointing thing about this season is not the Angels performance, but the lost minor league season. As I know you know, the Angels have a bunch of guys who have intriguing upside. Much of that talent was in the low minors at the end of 2019. And then there were the really young guys who hadn't played professionally yet, but with loads of talent. All of that was lost, at least for our viewing. On the plus side, next year we get to see what sort of fruits might have grown at Long Beach...I can't imagine that no development occurred.

Anyhow, bottom line: Despite his inability to put together a good pitching staff and a contending teamm, Eppler left the farm system in much better shape than he found it, and we fans will be enjoying the benefits for years to come. 

[Angelsjunky]

But kudos to Poozy for being owned, and owning it - and then having a sense of humor about it.

[Taylor]

34 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

But kudos to Poozy for being owned, and owning it - and then having a sense of humor about it.

That is commendable. A lot of us, myself including, need to stop taking ourselves so seriously.

[Taylor]

Just now, Spin Rate said:

That is commendable. A lot of us, myself including, need to stop taking ourselves so seriously.

Well said.

[kevinb]

Let's go Dodgers let So Cal own the sports world. Lakers just won the title and now it's time the Dodgers do to. 

[Angelsjunky]

1 minute ago, Kevinb said:

Let's go Dodgers let So Cal own the sports world. Lakers just won the title and now it's time the Dodgers to. 

Well said.

[AngelStew43]

I said basically the same thing to a friend yesterday.  The Dodgers always seem to find guys like Bellinger (3rd round), and May (3rd round).  Bellinger was right under our noses, living in Arizona.

Scouting, especially locally, and in South America, needs to drastically improve.

[Second Base]

I'm still astounded that Dustin May went in the third round. The big kick, flaming red hair, six and a half feet tall, and high 90's fastball, like how the frick could a scout not notice the dude?  Clearly the Dodgers saw him. 

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, Second Base said:

I'm still astounded that Dustin May went in the third round. The big kick, flaming red hair, six and a half feet tall, and high 90's fastball, like how the frick could a scout not notice the dude?  Clearly the Dodgers saw him. 

hopefully other teams will be saying something similar in regard to Kochanowicz soon.  

[Angelsjunky]

I wonder what percentage of Kochanowiczs turn into Mays. Meaning, for every Dustin May, are there a dozen Kochanowiczs? Half a dozen? Meaning, what percentage of high upside prep draft picks actually actualize their potential?