Was firing Eppler the right call?

[Docwaukee]

Every team has surplus with some value if you include the entire system.  They all have depth charts.  

Jordyn Adams is probably surplus but he's barely reached high A.  Another year of proper development and solid progression he could turn into a guy that headlines a deal.  

There is a difference between a surplus of players at a certain position and a surplus of value at a certain position.  

It also requires another team to consider your surplus in the same way.  Guys like Thaiss, Ward, Walsh, and Rengifo become much more valuable as redundant major league pieces that have started to prove their worth than fringy minor league guys who haven't and are as likely to end up AAAA players.  

Also, it turns out that we may actually need Ward, Rengifo, Walsh, Marsh, and possibly Thaiss.  And Adams and Jackson haven't reached a value as of yet that would net a return worth moving them for.  

Our farm system has some really nice players with some very high ceilings, but it lacks depth.  There is no surplus value.  Anywhere.  

[stormngt]

11 hours ago, Kevinb said:

And Reagins was the GM when Wells was traded for but people blame Arte for that too. Also read what you write before you write it I don’t know what 9n or mame means. 

Regains was responsible for the Wells trade.  He was the GM. 

Based on your logic no one is to blame for their poor performance.   All you have to do blame the owner instead.

[stormngt]

11 hours ago, Second Base said:

Position prospects for sure. Between Rengifo, Thaiss, Ward, Walsh, Adell, Marsh, Adams and Jackson, depending on the target, they could've afforded to flip at least a couple of them. And they each have some value. 

None if these people had any trade value until Epolers last two years.  Ward and Walsh had none until the end of this season.  Thaiss still doesn't have any value.   

I can't speak for Adell, Marsh, Adam's, and Jackson.  I do know nobody really wanted Adell traded until his flop this year.

Who could the Angel's really gotten for those players to suggest Eppler "hoarded prospects".

[Angel Oracle]

There had better be a 2020 fall season and 2021 minor league season.

[kevinb]

18 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Regains was responsible for the Wells trade.  He was the GM. 

Based on your logic no one is to blame for their poor performance.   All you have to do blame the owner instead.

Nope. As I’ve said before I think Arte is in charge of the big signings. Like he is the one going after these guys. The reports were that he personally made the pitch for Pujols, Rendon and Maddon. I think the GM we’ve had are more focused on other signings. 

[kevinb]

3 hours ago, Stradling said:

For starters I never called it a fact, I said what I heard.  Two, I’m not the one that called you out for considering rumors to be fact.  Quote someone else when you want to be an ignorant toolb. 

Lol what you’ve heard. You mean what you’ve read just like everyone else. Always entertaining. I’d stoop to your level but I won’t b. 

[Stradling]

4 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

Lol what you’ve heard. You mean what you’ve read just like everyone else. Always entertaining. I’d stoop to your level but I won’t b. 

Ok bro.  Yes what I have read.  Sorry that wasn’t clear.  I am incredibly sorry that you took offense to being called out for being ignorant by a handful of people.  

[Stradling]

8 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

Nope. As I’ve said before I think Arte is in charge of the big signings. Like he is the one going after these guys. The reports were that he personally made the pitch for Pujols, Rendon and Maddon. I think the GM we’ve had are more focused on other signings. 

Except that isn’t what was said about Arte, that is what you want to hear.  Arte isn’t going after these guys, Arte is the closer on these guys.  He is the one that comes in, after the GM does all the work and he makes the person feel like they belong in the organization.  It wasn’t Arte doing the leg work on any of these deals.  Based on previous situations like Arte trying to void the contract of GMJ After the HGH situation, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if Arte had to be talked into the Hamilton deal.  Also you are ignoring, again, the victory tour that Dipoto went on after the Albert signing.  

[Angel]

Someone needs to risk their career, go up to Arte and tell him baseball isn't billboards and he's playing with dynamite.

[kevinb]

31 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Ok bro.  Yes what I have read.  Sorry that wasn’t clear.  I am incredibly sorry that you took offense to being called out for being ignorant by a handful of people.  

I take no offense. I take no bother. We have a different of opinions. I don't name call either it is what it is. I have my opinions you have yours neither of us are in the room or the negotiating discussions so we don't know what's actually happening behind the scenes. It is all just message board banter nothing more nothing less. You are a good person you don't need to stoop to the level of name calling, you are better than that. 

[stormngt]

1 hour ago, Kevinb said:

Nope. As I’ve said before I think Arte is in charge of the big signings. Like he is the one going after these guys. The reports were that he personally made the pitch for Pujols, Rendon and Maddon. I think the GM we’ve had are more focused on other 

You think.

Everything is Arte fault and GM isnt responsible of anything.  Why did we fire Eppler if Arte is the one making important decisions. 

Edited September 30, 2020 by stormngt

[Second Base]

1 hour ago, stormngt said:

None if these people had any trade value until Epolers last two years.  Ward and Walsh had none until the end of this season.  Thaiss still doesn't have any value.   

I can't speak for Adell, Marsh, Adam's, and Jackson.  I do know nobody really wanted Adell traded until his flop this year.

Who could the Angel's really gotten for those players to suggest Eppler "hoarded prospects".

I'll include @Stradling in this one as you guys seem to be like minded in your value assessments. While I disagree, I don't do so fervently. Ward and Walsh had kind of chip in value, like if I were a GM I'd ask for them as an add on. Certainly not something you center a package on, unless the target was a low leverage reliever. Now they both obviously have more value. 

I feel like Thaiss has value. He can capably play 1B and 3B, he's young and inexpensive, a former first rounder and he's shown that he can hit for power in the big leagues, which was the biggest question for him coming up.

But I think that's splitting  hairs really. If you don't think they have value then you can certainly make a case. I wouldn't argue.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Second Base

[kevinb]

3 minutes ago, stormngt said:

You think.

Everything is Arte fault and GM ismt responsible of anything.  Why dud we fire Eppler if Arte is the one making important decisions. 

You really need to get control of your messages I can barely read them. I don’t think Arte is just to blame I think Arte takes some blame and some praise for the signings. I think that the GM for the Angels as it’s constructed now does more of the trades and smaller signings. I think Artes hands and rightfully so are on the bigger marquee guys. We saw that when Arte was the guy on the phone with Albert before he signed. I know it’s been 9 plus years but those videos I vividly remember. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

35 minutes ago, Second Base said:

I'll include @Stradling in this one as you guys seem to be like minded in your value assessments. While I disagree, I don't do so fervently. Ward and Walsh had kind of chip in value, like if I were a GM I'd ask for them as an add on. Certainly not something you center a package on, unless the target was a low leverage reliever. Now they both obviously have more value. 

I feel like Thaiss has value. He can capably play 1B and 3B, he's young and inexpensive, a former first rounder and he's shown that he can hit for power in the big leagues, which was the biggest question for him coming up.

But I think that's splitting  hairs really. If you don't think they have value then you can certainly make a case. I wouldn't argue.

Thaiss probably nets you less than a couple months of Tommy La Stella. You can only make moves around the margins with players like that.

[CanadianHalo]

No! I was really looking forward to watching Eppler sleep through another winter then watching the Angels finish below .500 for the 6th year in a row!
 

[Docwaukee]

4 hours ago, CanadianHalo said:

No! I was really looking forward to watching Eppler sleep through another winter then watching the Angels finish below .500 for the 6th year in a row!
 

you might still be able to do that if they get rid of the restraining order.  

[CanadianHalo]

2 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

you might still be able to do that if they get rid of the restraining order.  

[Angelsjunky]

The only prospects and young players who have significant trade value right now are Adell, Marsh, and Detmers; Fletcher if you want to go there. These are the guys you try to avoid trading, but are probably necessary if you want to get something really good in return.

The next tier are guys who have some value, but not nearly as much as they should have a year from now, if they develop as hoped: Adams, Jackson, Rodriguez, Kochanowicz, Vera, Paris, A Ramirez. You just don't trade these players, because they could be worth a lot more in the future.

Then there are guys who have a small amount, but could go either way in value, depending upon how they play in 2021: Deveaux, Knowles, Soriano, Yan, Jones, Franco, Holmes, as well as maybe Thaiss, Walsh, Ward, Rengifo and Barreto. These are the type of guys you might trade, but aren't centerpieces. They might get you a problematic or underperforming player ala Bundy, but would be secondary or even tertiary in a bigger trade.

Finally, there are guys with no real trade value, but may be diamonds in the rough if things go right: Suarez, Maitan, Hermosillo, Pina, and Ortega. These are the guys that you probably don't throw into a trade, unless someone asks, because they could surprise and turn into useful players, but have no real value up front.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Angelsjunky

[floplag]

I voted no.
I don't really think this season is indicative of anything to be honest, and after giving him an extension why waste that? 
It feels like another Arte got mad thing that isnt best for baseball, just Arte. 
Whos better available?  Who is going to want to come here? 
I would have given him next year first myself.

[Wisconsin27]

I voted no.  Then I learned that Second and Doc voted "yes" and I questioned myself!

I keep coming back to a few things.  For all of his faults (namely, FA starting pitching on a budget that maxed out at 10 mil or so, he struck out almost every time), I honestly think we will look back as him being a foundation builder.  He brought the farm back from one of the worst in baseball's recent history to middle of the pack in 4 years.  He signed key players (Trout, Rendon, Ohatani), he fixed the BP on next to nothing most years.  He made a few mistakes, like Upton's extension, but no GM in baseball doesn't make mistakes.  In the end, I would have given him one more. 

 

To judge him in a shortened season Covid year only months after the death of a beloved player and with a new manager/coaching staff is just too short-sighted for me.  Finally, he's well respected throughout the league and a pretty classy guy, IMO.  Everyone knows he will land on his feet.  If we undoubtedly made the right decision, why?

Given Arte's reputation, I'm just not willing to believe that we are some sort of destination location for a quality GM, despite having one of the 3 best players to ever wear the spikes being in their prime, great weather, wonderful fans, a strong budget, and excellent core.  We should have young up and comers banging down the door to get this job.  Why don't we?  My guess is the answer is those within the industry, they know.  If knowledgeable, respected and classy guys like Eppler can't make it work, why would they?

I think we pulled it one year prematurely.

 

[Docwaukee]

2 hours ago, Wisconsin27 said:

I voted no.  Then I learned that Second and Doc voted "yes" and I questioned myself!

I keep coming back to a few things.  For all of his faults (namely, FA starting pitching on a budget that maxed out at 10 mil or so, he struck out almost every time), I honestly think we will look back as him being a foundation builder.  He brought the farm back from one of the worst in baseball's recent history to middle of the pack in 4 years.  He signed key players (Trout, Rendon, Ohatani), he fixed the BP on next to nothing most years.  He made a few mistakes, like Upton's extension, but no GM in baseball doesn't make mistakes.  In the end, I would have given him one more. 

 

To judge him in a shortened season Covid year only months after the death of a beloved player and with a new manager/coaching staff is just too short-sighted for me.  Finally, he's well respected throughout the league and a pretty classy guy, IMO.  Everyone knows he will land on his feet.  If we undoubtedly made the right decision, why?

Given Arte's reputation, I'm just not willing to believe that we are some sort of destination location for a quality GM, despite having one of the 3 best players to ever wear the spikes being in their prime, great weather, wonderful fans, a strong budget, and excellent core.  We should have young up and comers banging down the door to get this job.  Why don't we?  My guess is the answer is those within the industry, they know.  If knowledgeable, respected and classy guys like Eppler can't make it work, why would they?

I think we pulled it one year prematurely.

 

I voted yes to the question of whether I thought firing Eppler was the right call.  But I didn't want him gone.  

My concern, however, was that if he did stay, he would have been rendered toothless by Arte and Maddon.  Now I don't know what actually happens behind the scenes so it's pure speculation on my part and I know assumptions are rarely a good idea, but my impression is that once Arte has lost trust in you, it's likely he's gonna get involved or get others involved and it's also likely that not everyone ends up rowing in the same direction.  

So I felt like the best thing for the org was to probably go in a different direction at this point.  Now, the caveat to all of that is whether they bring in some patsy or if someone can truly take the reigns.  Scouting, development, analytics, international presence.  The whole shebang.  Not just some mercenary who's gonna come in and trade away the entire farm and make hasty decisions.  

[Jeremiah]

On 10/3/2020 at 12:31 AM, Dochalo said:

I voted yes to the question of whether I thought firing Eppler was the right call.  But I didn't want him gone.  

My concern, however, was that if he did stay, he would have been rendered toothless by Arte and Maddon.  Now I don't know what actually happens behind the scenes so it's pure speculation on my part and I know assumptions are rarely a good idea, but my impression is that once Arte has lost trust in you, it's likely he's gonna get involved or get others involved and it's also likely that not everyone ends up rowing in the same direction.  

So I felt like the best thing for the org was to probably go in a different direction at this point.  Now, the caveat to all of that is whether they bring in some patsy or if someone can truly take the reigns.  Scouting, development, analytics, international presence.  The whole shebang.  Not just some mercenary who's gonna come in and trade away the entire farm and make hasty decisions.  

I agree with this, as well as something that @floplagalluded to: Who are they going to bring in that will be better? It will need to be someone who can embrace all of those things laid out here. That's what successful teams across the market-size spectrum have been doing for years now.

[Blarg]

Eppler was like an interim manager after a season goes to shit. He's there to pick up the pieces, smooth things over, get the team back on track. Regardless of record, whether posting wins or losses, he was going to be replaced and everyone moves on. His only hope was like the managerial purge after the 1999 season he would be kept on, like Maddon, in another capacity.

 I think the Angels may have made a mistake in not pursuing that instead of firing him outright. 

[W.E. Baxter Author]

On 9/28/2020 at 7:53 AM, Gooch said:

 The dodgers have always been good at developing pitching. We need to figure that out !!

I can't help by feel that has been a lot of the franchise's problem right there. The team AND the fans need to get off The Dodgers and just be The Angels, the team from Orange County.

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, W.E. Baxter Author said:

I can't help by feel that has been a lot of the franchise's problem right there. The team AND the fans need to get off The Dodgers and just be The Angels, the team from Orange County.

Yea, that is the problem with the Angels, it is an identity problem.  That is why the team has made mistakes.