Buttrey, Robles, and Middleton

[Docwaukee]

I had high hopes for this trio for 2020 and beyond.  That they would be able to lock down the 7th, 8th and 9th innings.  

yet they have combined for 48 innings and a 7.3 era.  They haven't been just bad but absolutely dreadful.  

There have been some disappointing performances this year, but for me, this is right at the top of the list.  

[Inside Pitch]

3 hours ago, Dochalo said:

I had high hopes for this trio for 2020 and beyond.  That they would be able to lock down the 7th, 8th and 9th innings.  

yet they have combined for 48 innings and a 7.3 era.  They haven't been just bad but absolutely dreadful.  

There have been some disappointing performances this year, but for me, this is right at the top of the list.  

So is it RP volatility or?   You can make a case in either direction.  Robles has been bad before, Middleton wasn't ever good for long enough to be considered a decline, the good sample may have been the false read.  TJS and sample size makes it iffy either way.  Buttrey needs another pitch or something to help what is a very flat FB

[tdawg87]

I hate relievers so much.

[Warfarin]

This is why I'm not too big on signing a free agent reliever to a significant amount of money.  We see this all the time - relievers who are studs one year, then just suddenly lose it the next year.  

[tdawg87]

1 hour ago, Warfarin said:

This is why I'm not too big on signing a free agent reliever to a significant amount of money.  We see this all the time - relievers who are studs one year, then just suddenly lose it the next year.  

It's true, but evidently the shelf life on a clean peanut is a year.

[Angels 1961]

Liam Hendriks is free agent, so is Blake Treinen. Buttrey was horrible second half last season. Mike Mayers has pitched well but bullpen has cost us a chance of playoffs. 

[Warfarin]

Just now, Angels 1961 said:

Liam Hendriks is free agent, so is Blake Treinen. Buttrey was horrible second half last season. Mike Mayers has pitched well but bullpen has cost us a chance of playoffs. 

We have limited funds to use.  Relievers are volatile.  I'd much rather spend 20mil/yr on a SP like Bauer than 10mil/yr on a Hendriks or Treinen.

Sign Bauer, extend Bundy.  Install Mayers as the closer, for now, given his performance this year.  

Next year, the bullpen probably consists of Mayers, Pena, Buttrey, Middleton, Ramirez, Quijada, Reyes, Sandoval .. maybe, at some point, Yan.  There is potential there, but we should hope for internal improvement and progression.

[fan_since79]

2 hours ago, Warfarin said:

This is why I'm not too big on signing a free agent reliever to a significant amount of money.  We see this all the time - relievers who are studs one year, then just suddenly lose it the next year.  

Craig Kimbrel agrees.

[Vlad27Trout27]

Buttrey, it seem like he just hasn't been able to repeat his mechanics. I would not be Surprised if Robles came into the season out of shape, you don't just randomly loose 3-5 mph, unless your not in shape or are injured. Middleton just sucks. 

[Angelsjunky]

Keynan seems like the new Bedrosian: high hopes, but they haven't materialized. That said, those three deserve a re-set next February. This season has been a total clusterfuck, and as with Upton's stat line, Maddon's managing, and Eppler's GMing, it is unfair to make hard judgements.

If the Angels sign a starter or two, their rotation can be fleshed out with Bundy, Heaney, and Canning as locks, Ohtani as the wildcard, and then a slew of starters as depth and/or bullpen pieces. A Sandoval or Barria may be more useful (and cheaper) than signing veteran relievers. So Feb-March can see them assemble a bullpen from quite a number of pitchers:

Sandoval, Barria, Suarez, Pena, Mayers, Buttrey, Robles, Middleton, Barnes, Bedrosian, and probably several (potential) clean peanuts. Detmers and Rodriguez might also factor in, either in the rotation or bullpen.

So my sense is that we'll see one of several offseason plans materialize:

A : Bauer, a decent reliever

B : Two mid-rotation starters (e.g. Odorizzi and Gausman)

C : One mid-rotation starter and one good reliever (or two decent ones)

D : Simmons, a mid-rotation starter

In all scenarios, Eppler can try to swing a trade or two and bring in potential clean peanuts and journeymen players for bullpen and lineup depth.

[Angel Oracle]

D sounds good to me.

Simba and Gausman, and move Barria to the pen.   Sandoval’s rep is solid ceiling but tends to get frustrated.   Can’t have that in a reliever.   Barria, on the other hand, seems composed usually.

Bundy, Heaney, Gausman, Canning, and Sandoval or one year fill in (with Detmers close to ready).

Make then really good defensively, by keeping Simba, and also Adell being a year older.

[Stradling]

5 minutes ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

I don't see why making judgements should be off limits. It's not like this 60 game season has produced unpredictable results in the standings league wide. All of the teams that were expected to make the playoffs in a regular length 162 game season are going to make the playoffs. The trash teams are in the cellar. The Angels went into this season without addressing any of their urgent needs that tanked them in 2019...the result has been predictable. 

This isn’t true at all.  I have said from the beginning that whatever happens this year so be it that I am not going to disqualify the end results because of the 60 game season.  We have been a bad team that doesn’t deserve to be in the playoffs.  But to say the standings are predictable, is flat out wrong.  Show me any standings that had the Yankees finishing in 3rd fighting with  the Orioles.  Show me where the Nats were predicted to be one of the worst teams in the league, worse than the Angels.  Show me where they predicted the Giants were going to be above .500.  It’s perfectly fine to do your normal “Angels suck” type of posts, but don’t pretend this season was predictable league wide.  

[Stradling]

Just now, Vladdylonglegs said:

The AL teams currently out of the playoff picture: Orioles, Tigers, Mariners, Angels, Royals, Red Sox, Rangers. Exactly what you would expect after a full season. Literally zero surprises except for a select few AW superfans who thought Rendon improved the team by 20 wins.

Yea, ok.  If you thought we would be this bad then that is more on you than it is on any “super fan” thinking we would be better.  Congrats on being the guy that thought the Angels would have their worst season ever.  You deserve praise for being that guy.

[Angel Oracle]

Buttrey needs another pitch, and more movement on the Heat.

Hard to gauge Middleton at this point.

Hoping that Robles will have a smaller arb salary In 2021, because I think there is something to what he said earlier about needing people in the stands to get his adrenaline going.  I’m not ready to give up yet in a guy that was solid the two previous years.   Now, if there are people in the stands in 2021, and he still struggles for the first 2 months, then it’s time to DFA him.

[stormngt]

2 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

Keynan seems like the new Bedrosian: high hopes, but they haven't materialized. That said, those three deserve a re-set next February. This season has been a total clusterfuck, and as with Upton's stat line, Maddon's managing, and Eppler's GMing, it is unfair to make hard judgements.

If the Angels sign a starter or two, their rotation can be fleshed out with Bundy, Heaney, and Canning as locks, Ohtani as the wildcard, and then a slew of starters as depth and/or bullpen pieces. A Sandoval or Barria may be more useful (and cheaper) than signing veteran relievers. So Feb-March can see them assemble a bullpen from quite a number of pitchers:

Sandoval, Barria, Suarez, Pena, Mayers, Buttrey, Robles, Middleton, Barnes, Bedrosian, and probably several (potential) clean peanuts. Detmers and Rodriguez might also factor in, either in the rotation or bullpen.

So my sense is that we'll see one of several offseason plans materialize:

A : Bauer, a decent reliever

B : Two mid-rotation starters (e.g. Odorizzi and Gausman)

C : One mid-rotation starter and one good reliever (or two decent ones)

D : Simmons, a mid-rotation starter

In all scenarios, Eppler can try to swing a trade or two and bring in potential clean peanuts and journeymen players for bullpen and lineup depth.

We need A plus Simmons.  Time for Arte to go over the cap for one year.

[Angelsjunky]

4 hours ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

I don't see why making judgements should be off limits. It's not like this 60 game season has produced unpredictable results in the standings league wide. All of the teams that were expected to make the playoffs in a regular length 162 game season are going to make the playoffs. The trash teams are in the cellar. The Angels went into this season without addressing any of their urgent needs that tanked them in 2019...the result has been predictable. 

I said nothing about being "off limits," just that judgments should be held lightly, due to the unusual nature of this season. Not only are there tons of weird factors at play that, in toto, could effect players differently, but the simple fact of sample size: 60 games--let along 40ish--is more swingy. Case in point: Justin Upton. After his horrible start, he's been hitting the leather off the ball: .406/.513/.688 since August 28.

1 hour ago, stormngt said:

We need A plus Simmons.  Time for Arte to go over the cap for one year.

Need, maybe but I doubt we'll get it. Simmons and Bauer would be great, and if we add in one of Stroman/Gausman/Odorizzi and a solid relief pitcher or two, we're probably a 90+ win team. Might as well throw in Realmuto, and we're legit contenders - but all that would cost $100M or so and bring payroll to something like $240M, well over the $210M luxury threshold. They might be able to squeeze in a mid-rotation pitcher and Simmons or Bauer and odds and ends, but not both - unless Simmons is willing to take a team friendly deal, like 3/$40M and Bauer a multi-year deal weighted for 2023 and beyond.

The Angels will also have an eye on extending Bundy and eventually Fletcher. It could be weighted for when Pujols and Upton leave, but still cost some money.

I think we'll see either one big piece and a bunch of small pieces (A), or a pair of middle-to-big pieces and odds and ends (B-D). I think they'll be competitive on Bauer, but someone will either give him $35-40M for 2021, or a huge 6-7 year $200-250M contract that he won't be able to refuse.

[Docwaukee]

9 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

So is it RP volatility or?   You can make a case in either direction.  Robles has been bad before, Middleton wasn't ever good for long enough to be considered a decline, the good sample may have been the false read.  TJS and sample size makes it iffy either way.  Buttrey needs another pitch or something to help what is a very flat FB

I expected this for Robles frankly.  He was bound to turn into a pumpkin at some point.  Buttrey does have a third pitch.  His change is highly rated.  I haven't checked brooks but his slider seems pretty flat lately as well.  Middleton was young and inexperienced or injured to where I was hoping he'd turn a corner but he looks like just another guy at this point.  

To me, reliever volatility means a guy could have an elite year, an ok year, and then a not so great year.  These three have gotten to the point where you can't even put them out there.  

[Revad]

Oops

[stormngt]

3 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

I said nothing about being "off limits," just that judgments should be held lightly, due to the unusual nature of this season. Not only are there tons of weird factors at play that, in toto, could effect players differently, but the simple fact of sample size: 60 games--let along 40ish--is more swingy. Case in point: Justin Upton. After his horrible start, he's been hitting the leather off the ball: .406/.513/.688 since August 28.

Need, maybe but I doubt we'll get it. Simmons and Bauer would be great, and if we add in one of Stroman/Gausman/Odorizzi and a solid relief pitcher or two, we're probably a 90+ win team. Might as well throw in Realmuto, and we're legit contenders - but all that would cost $100M or so and bring payroll to something like $240M, well over the $210M luxury threshold. They might be able to squeeze in a mid-rotation pitcher and Simmons or Bauer and odds and ends, but not both - unless Simmons is willing to take a team friendly deal, like 3/$40M and Bauer a multi-year deal weighted for 2023 and beyond.

The Angels will also have an eye on extending Bundy and eventually Fletcher. It could be weighted for when Pujols and Upton leave, but still cost some money.

I think we'll see either one big piece and a bunch of small pieces (A), or a pair of middle-to-big pieces and odds and ends (B-D). I think they'll be competitive on Bauer, but someone will either give him $35-40M for 2021, or a huge 6-7 year $200-250M contract that he won't be able to refuse.

I do not think any pitching is going to help us with poor defense.   Yes I know Fletcher is beyond adequate defensively  at SS.  However Simmons is exceptional at SS and Fletcher would be exceptional at 2nd.

I do not think Simmons would get much more than his current salary. Sign Bauer or frontline pitcher and I think we are set.

I know people say we need two or three pitchers but I disagree.  Canning is a 4 or 5, Barrira is a 4 or 5, heaney is a middle rotation and Bundy is a front of the rotation.

I just believe Simmons runs prevention ability enhances our pitching more than finding moderately better pitchers and not having his defense. 

Go over the cap one year.  Pujols iui s off the book next year and Upton the year after.

Edited September 13, 2020 by stormngt

[Revad]

Keep simba and get a couple of pitchers?is that so tough?

[Angels 1961]

7 hours ago, Warfarin said:

We have limited funds to use.  Relievers are volatile.  I'd much rather spend 20mil/yr on a SP like Bauer than 10mil/yr on a Hendriks or Treinen.

Sign Bauer, extend Bundy.  Install Mayers as the closer, for now, given his performance this year.  

Next year, the bullpen probably consists of Mayers, Pena, Buttrey, Middleton, Ramirez, Quijada, Reyes, Sandoval .. maybe, at some point, Yan.  There is potential there, but we should hope for internal improvement and progression.

Same old bullpen with disaster written all over it. You forgot Bedrosian and Bauer will cost more than 20 mill if Artie would even do that. Last year everybody all in on Cole and this year will be Bauer. I think best chance for upgrade in a starter is a trade. Gausman would be nice low budget free agent. 

[Bronson]

8 hours ago, Warfarin said:

We have limited funds to use.  Relievers are volatile.  I'd much rather spend 20mil/yr on a SP like Bauer than 10mil/yr on a Hendriks or Treinen.

Sign Bauer, extend Bundy.  Install Mayers as the closer, for now, given his performance this year.  

Next year, the bullpen probably consists of Mayers, Pena, Buttrey, Middleton, Ramirez, Quijada, Reyes, Sandoval .. maybe, at some point, Yan.  There is potential there, but we should hope for internal improvement and progression.

This exact mentality is why our bullpen is so shit every single year. We need a lock down closer. Period. Hendriks seems like the best bet.

[UndertheHalo]

Relievers are maddening.  All three could be good.  Or not.  

[Inside Pitch]

15 hours ago, Dochalo said:

To me, reliever volatility means a guy could have an elite year, an ok year, and then a not so great year.  These three have gotten to the point where you can't even put them out there.  

I've always held a very similar opinion, but lately it seems the volatility has been getting worse.  We've seen a lot of established guys just up and go boom.   We've seen guys given up for dead come back with a vengeance.  I think there is so much changing that RP and their limited samples tend to see a lot more variance than in the past.

The one thing that seems to still hold true .... long term deals for RPs (3 years+), remain a risk.

[Warfarin]

13 hours ago, Angels 1961 said:

Same old bullpen with disaster written all over it. You forgot Bedrosian and Bauer will cost more than 20 mill if Artie would even do that. Last year everybody all in on Cole and this year will be Bauer. I think best chance for upgrade in a starter is a trade. Gausman would be nice low budget free agent. 

I would be okay with a trade, too.

I have stated in another thread I'd look into trading Adell for Manning or Mize.  I know people would be upset trading Adell, but that'd be the way to acquire a legit, young, top-of-the-rotation pitching prospect.