Buttrey, Robles, and Middleton

[Warfarin]

13 hours ago, Bronson said:

This exact mentality is why our bullpen is so shit every single year. We need a lock down closer. Period. Hendriks seems like the best bet.

Well, no - I'd say we need to do a better job of developing pitchers in the minors, and also need to do a better job of scouring the waiver wire to find talent.

Look at Robles last year, Mayers this year - these guys we got for basically nothing, and they dominated during the year.

It can be done, but we need to do a better job of finding them.

[Warfarin]

19 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

I've always held a very similar opinion, but lately it seems the volatility has been getting worse.  We've seen a lot of established guys just up and go boom.   We've seen guys given up for dead come back with a vengeance.  I think there is so much changing that RP and their limited samples tend to see a lot more variance than in the past.

The one thing that seems to still hold true .... long term deals for RPs (3 years+), remain a risk.

Yes, exactly.  Now, if we find a legit RP who wants a one year deal (like what the Dodgers did with Treinen, think he signed a 1/10 deal), then I'm good with that.  But multi-year deals seem very risky for relievers.

Again, just look at Robles.  He was dominant last year, and now this year, he is just absolutely terrible.  It's not uncommon to see that with relievers, given they usually rely on just 2 pitches, and if one pitch regresses ..

[fan_since79]

16 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

Relievers are maddening.  All three could be good.  Or not.  

It seems to be a crap shoot year after year. Very frustrating. And then you see the occasional great performance like last night. But it's terribly inconsistent. We will not be a 90-win team without a reliable bullpen. Just won't happen.

[Bronson]

7 hours ago, Warfarin said:

Well, no - I'd say we need to do a better job of developing pitchers in the minors, and also need to do a better job of scouring the waiver wire to find talent.

Look at Robles last year, Mayers this year - these guys we got for basically nothing, and they dominated during the year.

It can be done, but we need to do a better job of finding them.

Look at the Yankees.... one of the best bullpens in all of baseball all from signings basically. It’s obvious we can’t develop good relievers... who was our most recent reliever that we actually developed who was shut down??? K Rod??? When we had a good bullpen in 2014 we signed Joe Smith and traded for Huston Street and the 8th and 9th was lock down. 

[Stradling]

7 minutes ago, Bronson said:

Look at the Yankees.... one of the best bullpens in all of baseball all from signings basically. It’s obvious we can’t develop good relievers... who was our most recent reliever that we actually developed who was shut down??? K Rod??? When we had a good bullpen in 2014 we signed Joe Smith and traded for Huston Street and the 8th and 9th was lock down. 

Cool now look at the Cubs and the Rockies.  

[Bronson]

42 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Cool now look at the Cubs and the Rockies.  

Cool.... too bad we can’t develop relievers. If you can’t make it.... buy it. Unless you wanna have a shitty bullpen year after year.

[Bronson]

4 hours ago, fan_since79 said:

It seems to be a crap shoot year after year. Very frustrating. And then you see the occasional great performance like last night. But it's terribly inconsistent. We will not be a 90-win team without a reliable bullpen. Just won't happen.

Apparently we should just wait and bank that the farm can develop a good bullpen while Trout is still in his prime... something they haven’t been able to accomplish in over 10 years...

[Angel Oracle]

On the bright side, Mayers has blossomed thanks to the newfound cutter, and Andriese has been much better lately.   Pena, except for a two game hiccup, has been fine.

There is 5/8 of a pen to work from, including a decent enough BedRock Jr. and Milner (both having around a 1.00 WHIP, although missing some time).

Edited September 13, 2020 by Angel Oracle

[Stradling]

1 hour ago, Bronson said:

Cool.... too bad we can’t develop relievers. If you can’t make it.... buy it. Unless you wanna have a shitty bullpen year after year.

If you buy it and they suck you are out future money.  You aren’t getting premium guys to sign one year deals.  The Rockies bought three relievers and game them a shit ton of money, they all suck.  

[Stradling]

Just now, Stradling said:

If you buy it and they suck you are out future money.  You aren’t getting premium guys to sign one year deals.  The Rockies bought three relievers and game them a shit ton of money, they all suck.  

The Cubs bought two guys and they both suck.

[Warfarin]

45 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

On the bright side, Mayers has blossomed thanks to the newfound cutter, and Andriese has been much better lately.   Pena, except for a two game hiccup, has been fine.

There is 5/8 of a pen to work from, including a decent enough BedRock Jr. and Milner (both having around a 1.00 WHIP, although missing some time).

Yes.  Relievers are very volatile, but we can hope that having someone like Callaway to help our pitchers develop will pay dividends soon.

Right now, it appears Maddon trusts Mayers, Pena, Buttrey, and Andriese the most.  Buttrey has been iffy at best, but he was a legit shutdown guy for us for awhile, so there's hope he can regain his form.

In the end, if 3 of those 4 guys can be really solid, that should make a huge difference for next year.  

[Bronson]

57 minutes ago, Stradling said:

If you buy it and they suck you are out future money.  You aren’t getting premium guys to sign one year deals.  The Rockies bought three relievers and game them a shit ton of money, they all suck.  

Yeah they pitch in Colorado.... what do you expect to happen?

[Stradling]

9 minutes ago, Bronson said:

Yeah they pitch in Colorado.... what do you expect to happen?

Pick a team that spent big money on relievers, they virtually all regret it.  Not every single one, but its probably 70%.  

[Bronson]

Just now, Stradling said:

Pick a team that spent big money on relievers, they virtually all regret it.  Not every single one, but its probably 70%.  

We seem to have a decent track record when we do it... we just never do it. And besides.... when you can’t develop relief pitching what other choice do we have? Unless you like to see lead after lead blown.

[Stradling]

8 minutes ago, Bronson said:

We seem to have a decent track record when we do it... we just never do it. And besides.... when you can’t develop relief pitching what other choice do we have? Unless you like to see lead after lead blown.

We have a decent track record?  Would you call Street a good investment when we extended him and gave him big money?  Brian Fuentes?  Those were our last two, unless I am forgetting someone.  And what we did 5 years ago is irrelevant now.  

[DMVol]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

We have a decent track record?  Would you call Street a good investment when we extended him and gave him big money?  Brian Fuentes?  Those were our last two, unless I am forgetting someone.  And what we did 5 years ago is irrelevant now.  

Justin Speier was good for 1 year....bad for 2....probably Stoneman’s one trip in to the relief market...

[totdprods]

Darren Oliver and Scott Downs are the last good multi-year RP deals we gave out, off the top of my head, and I feel like both had a bad year a piece during their run.

Our best relievers during the Eppler years have been waiver claims, ST invites, and minor league trades. Even a lot of the guys he brought in did well later - Brice, Yates, Curtiss, Drake. 

The best way to fix the pen is have about 15 guys with good stuff you can option to and fro as needed until you get a handful of them to stick. You can’t option expensive free agents. You keep trotting them out. You’re stuck with them until you DFA them and eat the money. Even if they come with a track record, they’re likely to muck up your roster. I think Callaway is a good pitching coach. Think he can make a difference. It won’t happen overnight. Best process is keep that stable full of promising arms and work on them until you get lucky. I also think a functional offense and rotation, something we’ve rarely had one of, even rarer both of at the same time, begets a good bullpen. When the relievers are overworked (and being shuttled in and out for fresh arms) and the offense is too lackluster to fight back against other bullpens, every run allowed becomes a catastrophe. Confidence is a big thing for relievers and we’ve given them little reason to have any when they’re always coming in during the 4th inning or not getting run support late in games. 

[arch stanton]

50 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Darren Oliver and Scott Downs are the last good multi-year RP deals we gave out, off the top of my head, and I feel like both had a bad year a piece during their run.

Our best relievers during the Eppler years have been waiver claims, ST invites, and minor league trades. Even a lot of the guys he brought in did well later - Brice, Yates, Curtiss, Drake. 

The best way to fix the pen is have about 15 guys with good stuff you can option to and fro as needed until you get a handful of them to stick. You can’t option expensive free agents. You keep trotting them out. You’re stuck with them until you DFA them and eat the money. Even if they come with a track record, they’re likely to muck up your roster. I think Callaway is a good pitching coach. Think he can make a difference. It won’t happen overnight. Best process is keep that stable full of promising arms and work on them until you get lucky. I also think a functional offense and rotation, something we’ve rarely had one of, even rarer both of at the same time, begets a good bullpen. When the relievers are overworked (and being shuttled in and out for fresh arms) and the offense is too lackluster to fight back against other bullpens, every run allowed becomes a catastrophe. Confidence is a big thing for relievers and we’ve given them little reason to have any when they’re always coming in during the 4th inning or not getting run support late in games. 

Yeah if you want to buy a RP long term just ask the Rockies how that works

[Mark PT]

On 9/12/2020 at 2:13 AM, Dochalo said:

I had high hopes for this trio for 2020 and beyond.  That they would be able to lock down the 7th, 8th and 9th innings.  

yet they have combined for 48 innings and a 7.3 era.  They haven't been just bad but absolutely dreadful.  

There have been some disappointing performances this year, but for me, this is right at the top of the list.  

 I share your hope but always knew it to be a long stretch of a hope for these guys. The last really solid, lock-down relieve pitcher we've had was Donnelly (6th), Shields (7th), Rodriguez (8th), and Percival (9th). All these guys, with the minor exception of Rodriguez, commanded the zone and K-rod was no where near as wild as what we see today. Our pitchers today miss with all their pitches and then bring something right across the middle. It is really one of the worst staffs I've ever seen.