Angels renew stadium talks with Anaheim after striking out in Tustin

[kevinb]

All it is, is a handout. I get why Arte wants it because hey it's free f ing money to him but it costs the tax payers and the city hundreds of millions of dollars so this fat cat can get richer. But it would be this government would rather fork over hundreds of millions of dollars to a billionaire rather than you know save money. These owners are such criminals it's not even funny. 

[gotbeer]

1 minute ago, Kevinb said:

Not enough to make up for it. They've done studies and it's not even close

Yeah, Disneyland, I can see.  365 days a year operation.  Baseball is the best case to make it work at 81 days a year.  But cities get fleeced.  Football, great for the teams, but unless you can fill the other 356 days, it's the worst investment a municipality can make.

[kevinb]

Just now, Stradling said:

So they sell the land to someone who builds a mall the mall does well until someone builds a better mall.  Then tax revenue goes down.  

How many cities have lost a football and baseball team?  

Sell to a mall are u kidding me that land is worth more than a mall you can sell it to Disney they make a huge whatever they want to build and it keeps making money provides jobs and infrastructure than a stadium that houses 81 games and a monster truck rally wahoo. 

[Stradling]

Ok so right now how much does Anaheim Stadium cost the city and tax payers annually?  

[kevinb]

Sports is a short term good for the owners and the "fans" who want to watch them but in the off season is a mess and it's an eye sore

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Kevinb said:

Sell to a mall are u kidding me that land is worth more than a mall you can sell it to Disney they make a huge whatever they want to build and it keeps making money provides jobs and infrastructure than a stadium that houses 81 games and a monster truck rally wahoo. 

Ok so the city of Anaheim could sell the land to Disney, at a reduced rate because it's Disney.  You know that Disney gets tax breaks from Anaheim too, right?  Shouldn't you be up in arms about that, since they are rich.  

[kevinb]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

Ok so right now how much does Anaheim Stadium cost the city and tax payers annually?  

I don't know but doesn't Arte get all the income right now? He doesn't share very much of it. And I'm not talking now I'm talking about if he has the city try to pay for a new 500 plus million dollar stadium. That costs the city a ton of money. Not sure you know how it works but ya 500 plus million is a lot to some people 

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Kevinb said:

Sports is a short term good for the owners and the "fans" who want to watch them but in the off season is a mess and it's an eye sore

Ok so no more stadiums?  

[AngelsLakersFan]

5 minutes ago, Stradling said:

So they sell the land to someone who builds a mall the mall does well until someone builds a better mall.  Then tax revenue goes down.  

How many cities have lost a football and baseball team?  

How many cities have lost a mall?

[kevinb]

Just now, Stradling said:

Ok so the city of Anaheim could sell the land to Disney, at a reduced rate because it's Disney.  You know that Disney gets tax breaks from Anaheim too, right?  Shouldn't you be up in arms about that, since they are rich.  

Provides more economic value than a stadium that is only used 81 days a year. Provides way more jobs way more income for people which in turn puts more money back into the economy 

[Stradling]

Just now, AngelsLakersFan said:

How many cities have lost a mall?

Lots.  Do you really think losing a mall is the same as losing a sports team?  

[AngelsLakersFan]

Just now, Stradling said:

Lots.  Do you really think losing a mall is the same as losing a sports team?  

How many cities have lost a football team, a baseball team, and a mall?

[kevinb]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

Ok so no more stadiums?  

Have the fucking owners build them if they want cities are being fleeced. So you'd rather see the government hand out 600 plus million dollar checks to billionaire owners so that you can watch a couple games a year at the stadium. And then these billionaires get to earn all the profit. Hell where the hell does my company sign up for shit like this. I'd love a free 500 million dollar check from the city and we provide more economic and social benefit than a stadium. We also have more employees but whatever let's help out this sports franchise and have the city go bk because they can't afford shit after 

[gotbeer]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

So they sell the land to someone who builds a mall the mall does well until someone builds a better mall.  Then tax revenue goes down.  

How many cities have lost a football and baseball team?  

just think of it this way Strad. 

You have a baseball stadium with zero revenue for the city.  Of you build a 1000 unit, mixed used development project (on 155 acres, that's probably on the very low side).  You sell each unit for $200,000.  (again, probably on the low side)  So that is $200,000,000.  City gets it's sales tax revenue of say 1%.  So that's immediately $2 million.  On top of that, they collect 1% annually (not sure what the property tax rate is in Anaheim) of $2 million annually.  The sales tax revenue of the mixed units might be a wash with what the baseball stadium currently brings.  But i'd still think the mixed use will bring in more since they will be in operations 365 days vs 81 days of stadium revenue.

That would probably be the low end revenue potential of the land. 

The other option is they get zero, and are asked to pay $300-600 million to build a new stadium. 

[red321]

I'm all for cities holding the line when it comes to public funding of stadiums. Cobb County is being swindled by the Braves, the Rangers are trying to do it to Arlington.

With that said...the city of Anaheim has considered that parking lot to be the golden gem for decades (see losing Los Angeles Rams and giving Angels opt-out clause in lease). They've shown no ability that they actually know what to do with the land outside of maybe bending over for Disneyland....and don't think Disneyland isn't eyeing that area for some future parking lot.

In this case both sides need each other...good on the city for working for the best deal and I would expect as we get closer to 2019 both sides get something worked out. There really is no rush.

[kevinb]

There sports team benefits one person the sports owner. It provides you something to do on a random Saturday night not for free but you have to buy a ticket to go to a game so not only does the owner of the sports team get free hundreds of millions of dollars from the tax payers but then you the tax payers have to pay to see a game at their stadium haha

[Stradling]

Or instead of telling the owner to fit the bill himself he can pass the cost onto the consumers of his product.  The city could also do this.  

[kevinb]

2 minutes ago, red321 said:

I'm all for cities holding the line when it comes to public funding of stadiums. Cobb County is being swindled by the Braves, the Rangers are trying to do it to Arlington.

With that said...the city of Anaheim has considered that parking lot to be the golden gem for decades (see losing Los Angeles Rams and giving Angels opt-out clause in lease). They've shown no ability that they actually know what to do with the land outside of maybe bending over for Disneyland....and don't think Disneyland isn't eyeing that area for some future parking lot.

In this case both sides need each other...good on the city for working for the best deal and I would expect as we get closer to 2019 both sides get something worked out. There really is no rush.

Not true you could do so much more than a stadium on that land hell even if you didn't sell the land to Disney. Apartments mix used condos shopping they have the music venue city business centers high rise towers etc etc etc

[Stradling]

4 minutes ago, gotbeer said:

just think of it this way Strad. 

You have a baseball stadium with zero revenue for the city.  Of you build a 1000 unit, mixed used development project (on 155 acres, that's probably on the very low side).  You sell each unit for $200,000.  (again, probably on the low side)  So that is $200,000,000.  City gets it's sales tax revenue of say 1%.  So that's immediately $2 million.  On top of that, they collect 1% annually (not sure what the property tax rate is in Anaheim) of $2 million annually.  The sales tax revenue of the mixed units might be a wash with what the baseball stadium currently brings.  But i'd still think the mixed use will bring in more since they will be in operations 365 days vs 81 days of stadium revenue.

That would probably be the low end revenue potential of the land. 

The other option is they get zero, and are asked to pay $300-600 million to build a new stadium. 

I get it.  But I do believe there is value in having a sports team in your city.  I've heard crazy numbers for a football team in local economy each year.  I can only assume the same would be true about a baseball team.  

[kevinb]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

Or instead of telling the owner to fit the bill himself he can pass the cost onto the consumers of his product.  The city could also do this.  

So have the billionaire owner say instead of here's a 10 dollar ticket it's now. 1000 dollar ticket for upper deck seats? Because we're having only the fans pay for the stadium. Here's a guess if that happens. How many fans in the city of Anaheim will tell Arte to go bye bye. 

[Stradling]

Yes because that's what I meant Kevin, take a $10 seat and make it $1,000.  

[gotbeer]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I get it.  But I do believe there is value in having a sports team in your city.  I've heard crazy numbers for a football team in local economy each year.  I can only assume the same would be true about a baseball team.  

I think those numbers are made for just the purpose of swindling cities into paying for a stadium.  It's equivalent to having an expert witness on the stand during the trial.  Or better yet, a health study done by the tobacco industry.  You can make studies, even scientific one's, say exactly what you want to get the outcome you want.

[kevinb]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

I get it.  But I do believe there is value in having a sports team in your city.  I've heard crazy numbers for a football team in local economy each year.  I can only assume the same would be true about a baseball team.  

Value but not worth the tax payers paying 500 plus million dollars in their income for an owner making hundred plus million a year on his franchise to get a 500 million dollar handout from the city tax payers. How does that not compute? Would you rather pay more taxes or less and then instead of giving your taxes to the government your giving your taxes to a billionaire sports franchise owner so he can build a stadium for his team and profit more off of it, then you have to after giving your money to him give him more money to go see his team play baseball on his field and buy concessions that all go back to his pocket

 

[kevinb]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Yes because that's what I meant Kevin, take a $10 seat and make it $1,000.  

You said only have consumers of his product pay. Not everyone in Anaheim goes to games and the city can't go to other cities for funds to pay for it

[gotbeer]

4 minutes ago, Kevinb said:

So have the billionaire owner say instead of here's a 10 dollar ticket it's now. 1000 dollar ticket for upper deck seats? Because we're having only the fans pay for the stadium. Here's a guess if that happens. How many fans in the city of Anaheim will tell Arte to go bye bye. 

 

Well, for a $1 billion stadium.  Over 30 years.  Straight line, no interest rate.  Would be about 33 million a year.  At 3 million fans.  It would be about a $10 bump in ticket prices.  Of course in deals like this, nothing is straight or free.  Especially the number of fans.  I'd say go 2 million fans, at a $16.50 price.  So the $10 tickets would be $26.50.  It would still be doable, especially if you spread the cost around a bit, maybe as a %, so that the better seats gets a bigger surcharge.