[hey mtangelsfan] How Bernie pays for his proposals

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

That said, it is also now clear that you missed Bernie's point. The way I interpret it is that he is questioning the basic idea that student loan debt should have a higher interest rate than a refinanced mortgage, because someone with a mortgage is likely to be in better economic shape than someone with new student loans. The point being, we should be making it easier for new students, not more difficult.

 

 

Did you completely disregard or not understand Nate's response?  A mortgage lender can take back a house and sell it if someone defaults.  When someone defaults on a student loan there's nothing to take back, sell and recoup losses.  Also generally the person in better economic shape is going to get a better rate all things being equal because they're deemed to be more credit worthy.  The fact that you're arguing against that or trying to say it should be the opposite...there's really no response because these are basic concepts.  

[nate]

Cat, maybe if you wrote your response in more of a sound byte manner he would understand it.

[Angelsjunky]

Yes, I hear you. But you're missing what Bernie is saying - he's not making fine points about economics or the nuts and bolts of loans and mortages, he's making a general point - that we make it really hard for students with loans. Or that's how I take it.

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

No I'm not missing what he's saying I'm pointing out why it's BS and it's just aimed at getting votes from angry voters, most of who are millennials who think he's going to make their life better by giving them free or cheaper money.  You don't need to be a business major to understand the basic concepts of credit.  If you've got collateral, a strong credit history, a good credit score, income history and so on you're getting a better rate because lenders deem you as less likely to default.  The majority of people applying for mortgages historically (subprime lending and some other types aside) have had to meet these requirements to some degree to even begin the mortgage loan application process.  If you're an 18-22 year old you likely have no collateral, a short credit history, a run of the mill credit score at best and an income history that likely includes part time jobs going back to high school.  On a student loan if you default or get your degree and decide you want to stick at your McJob there's little or no recourse for lenders other than hounding you to pay what you owe and trying to garnish wages if legally allowed.  

Edited February 24, 2016 by Catwhoshatinthehat

[nate]

Touche.  His statement is so incredibly stupid and fraudulent but his followers eat it up because they don't understand the basics of loans or economics.

 

It is some spectacular brainwashing... just look how AJ keeps referring to a "rigged economy" even when it has nothing to do with the subject.

[Adam]

You know what would happen if the government got out of the student loan business?

Tuition would go down significantly

[Angelsjunky]

It has everything to do with the subject, nate.

 

Cat, I hear you and understand - and from that perspective, what Bernie is saying is "wrong." But again, he's not saying what you think he's saying (as far as I can tell). So here's a question for you. How can we better support young people in getting an education and not being saddled with enormous debt? You guys hate the idea of free college, yet at the same time you don't seem to have a problem with high interest rates on loans. So how are kids who don't have money supposed to get a college education?

[Angelsjunky]

You know what would happen if the government got out of the student loan business?

Tuition would go down significantly

 

Yes, I agree. The government makes billions on student loan interest, just as banks make billions on overdraft charges, just as pharmaceutical companies make ridiculous profit margins. We can go on and on...just variations on the "rigged economy" that a lot of you guys deny exists.

[nate]

AJ, you do realize that the bankers that give out the loans are the ones you are asking to pay for them right?

 

So under your plan banks could either:

1. lose money by offering student loans at a lower interest rate
2. stop offering student loans at all

Both would reduce revenue for the bank which would in turn reduce tax revenue.  So not only are you generating less in tax revenue but you are also significantly increasing spending.

[Adam]

Yes, I agree. The government makes billions on student loan interest, just as banks make billions on overdraft charges, just as pharmaceutical companies make ridiculous profit margins. We can go on and on...just variations on the "rigged economy" that a lot of you guys deny exists.

Who denies it exists?

It exists because of the government. Getting the government out of it is the solution not giving it even more power.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Adam

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

It has everything to do with the subject, nate.

 

Cat, I hear you and understand - and from that perspective, what Bernie is saying is "wrong." But again, he's not saying what you think he's saying (as far as I can tell). So here's a question for you. How can we better support young people in getting an education and not being saddled with enormous debt? You guys hate the idea of free college, yet at the same time you don't seem to have a problem with high interest rates on loans. So how are kids who don't have money supposed to get a college education?

 

You can better support young people in getting an education by letting them know there are consequences for decisions they make starting when they're 17/18 and that no politician is going to bail them out.  If you want the full college experience so you can move out of the house and your parents can't pay for it be ready to take on debt needed to fund that dream.  How are kids who don't have money supposed to get an education?  The same way I did and other posters here - start working part time when you're 16 or 17 and still in high school, when you graduate go to a JC while living at home to knock out your first 2 years of classes (where you'll find out that teachers at state schools teach some of those classes at OCC/GW) then transfer to a 4 year for your last 2-3 years worth of classes.  If you have enough time to hang out with friends after school then you also have enough time to work while you're going to school.  If you're smart with your money you'll be able to get out debt free or with minimal debt.  

Edited February 24, 2016 by Catwhoshatinthehat

[Angelsjunky]

AJ, you do realize that the bankers that give out the loans are the ones you are asking to pay for them right?

 

So under your plan banks could either:

1. lose money by offering student loans at a lower interest rate
2. stop offering student loans at all

Both would reduce revenue for the bank which would in turn reduce tax revenue.  So not only are you generating less in tax revenue but you are also significantly increasing spending.

 

My plan? What is my plan? Are you talking about Bernie's plan?

 

Anyhow, I'd adjust your first option to "make less money by offering student loans at a lower interest rate." You also don't include "offer free public college options as an extension of the public education system."

 

Who denies it exists?

It exists because of the government. Getting the government out of it is the solution not giving it even more power.

 

Partially. But why are you letting the private sector off the hook? I see it as a combination of very well wealthy people and their bought politicians.

[nate]

It isn't free AJ, it is very expensive actually.

[Angelsjunky]

You can better support young people in getting an education by letting them know there are consequences for decisions they make starting when they're 17/18 and that no politician is going to bail them out.  If you want the full college experience so you can move out of the house and your parents can't pay for it be ready to take on debt needed to fund that dream.  How are kids who don't have money supposed to get an education?  The same way I did and other posters here - start working part time when you're 16 or 17 and still in high school, when you graduate go to a JC while living at home to knock out your first 2 years of classes (where you'll find out that teachers at state schools teach some of those classes at OCC/GW) then transfer to a 4 year for your last 2-3 years worth of classes.  If you have enough time to hang out with friends after school then you also have enough time to work while you're going to school.  If you're smart with your money you'll be able to get out debt free or with minimal debt.  

 

Makes sense, and that works in an ideal world. But what you are saying is we need to improve high school education, perhaps with better life and economic planning - I can agree with that.

 

That said, what's wrong with having free public college options? What's wrong with having lower interest rates on student loans and lower payments? Etc. In other words, why not improve what we have, and make education less profit oriented?

 

So yeah, I agree with your basic idea - which comes down to better educating young people so that they are more empowered. But we're still left with the problem we're in right now, with more and more millenials graduating from college, no work, and tons of debt.

[nate]

It is remarkable.  Bernie Sanders' drones have a big problem with being told if they want something to get a job and pay for it, but they have absolutely no problem with taking other peoples money and doing what they want with it.

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

Makes sense, and that works in an ideal world. But what you are saying is we need to improve high school education, perhaps with better life and economic planning - I can agree with that.

 

That said, what's wrong with having free public college options? What's wrong with having lower interest rates on student loans and lower payments? Etc. In other words, why not improve what we have, and make education less profit oriented?

 

So yeah, I agree with your basic idea - which comes down to better educating young people so that they are more empowered. But we're still left with the problem we're in right now, with more and more millenials graduating from college, no work, and tons of debt.

 

Nothing is free.  Lower interest rates and lower payments for people with no skin in the game?  You realize that was one of the issues with the mortgage crisis right?  Plenty of blame to go around but people with no down payments, little or no income history and so on got into houses they had no business being in.  Made it a lot easier for them to walk away and just file BK.

 

It's amazing how many people find jobs when they really need one.  I've come across quite a few millennials who complain how hard it is while they live with mom and dad rent free and go out most nights of the week.  They hold on for dream jobs and think they're qualified for executive level positions.  When they finally realize they're not they get an entry level position making what I made right out of college after adjusting for inflation and I did it while living with 2 roommates.  There's jobs out there we've just got a large segment of the population that thinks they're beneath them or that a college degrees means they're qualified for jobs they aren't.  I learned more during the first year at my current employer than I did all through college because instead of taking classes across a broad spectrum learning things I rarely or never use I learned real world skills and applications.  After that with hard work, getting professional certifications and putting in the time I've increased my earnings potential multiple times.    

Edited February 24, 2016 by Catwhoshatinthehat

[ABC]

Makes sense, and that works in an ideal world. But what you are saying is we need to improve high school education, perhaps with better life and economic planning - I can agree with that.

 

That said, what's wrong with having free public college options? What's wrong with having lower interest rates on student loans and lower payments? Etc. In other words, why not improve what we have, and make education less profit oriented?

 

So yeah, I agree with your basic idea - which comes down to better educating young people so that they are more empowered. But we're still left with the problem we're in right now, with more and more millenials graduating from college, no work, and tons of debt.

 

I think education is becoming too expensive, too. But how is giving free college going to add more jobs for graduates? The thing is that there are many jobs in the US but we do not have enough STEM or healthcare graduates to fill the need so we are importing them from other countries. 

 

Are students doing anything for the free college? Is college free to all majors?

 

There should always be freedom of choice but there needs to be a planned education system that incentivizes students to get the skills needed in today's and tomorrow's America.  

[Angelsjunky]

Nothing is free.  Lower interest rates and lower payments for people with no skin in the game?  You realize that was one of the issues with the mortgage crisis right?  Plenty of blame to go around but people with no down payments, little or no income history and so on got into houses they had no business being in.  Made it a lot easier for them to walk away and just file BK.

 

It's amazing how many people find jobs when they really need one.  I've come across quite a few millennials who complain how hard it is while they live with mom and dad rent free and go out most nights of the week.  They hold on for dream jobs and think they're qualified for executive level positions.  When they finally realize they're not they get an entry level position making what I made right out of college after adjusting for inflation and I did it while living with 2 roommates.  There's jobs out there we've just got a large segment of the population that thinks they're beneath them or that a college degrees means they're qualified for jobs they aren't.  I learned more during the first year at my current employer than I did all through college because instead of taking classes across a broad spectrum learning things I rarely or never use I learned real world skills and applications.  After that with hard work, getting professional certifications and putting in the time I've increased my earnings potential multiple times.    

 

Cat, I don't see why lower loan interest rates would increase the ease of getting student loans as it is already very easy.

 

As for the millenials and jobs, I can't disagree with much of what you say. They're accused of being the "entitlement generation," which I think is true to some degree. Even so, we're going to increasingly face the challenge of people with massive debt and low-paying jobs, and thus a kind of "debt-enslavement." That can be hard to get out of. It is possible, but not for everyone.

[ABC]

Nothing is free.  Lower interest rates and lower payments for people with no skin in the game?  You realize that was one of the issues with the mortgage crisis right?  Plenty of blame to go around but people with no down payments, little or no income history and so on got into houses they had no business being in.  Made it a lot easier for them to walk away and just file BK.

 

It's amazing how many people find jobs when they really need one.  I've come across quite a few millennials who complain how hard it is while they live with mom and dad rent free and go out most nights of the week.  They hold on for dream jobs and think they're qualified for executive level positions.  When they finally realize they're not they get an entry level position making what I made right out of college after adjusting for inflation and I did it while living with 2 roommates.  There's jobs out there we've just got a large segment of the population that thinks they're beneath them or that a college degrees means they're qualified for jobs they aren't.  I learned more during the first year at my current employer than I did all through college because instead of taking classes across a broad spectrum learning things I rarely or never use I learned real world skills and applications.  After that with hard work, getting professional certifications and putting in the time I've increased my earnings potential multiple times.    

 

 

I talk with many biz owners and execs and they have a problem finding employees who are not entitled millennials. It is the number one complaint after taxation. When they do hire "head on straight" millennials the entitlement usually creeps in very quickly.  

 

I have had the same experience as the owners and execs. On some level it is a generational disconnect but for the most part millennials think their job is a god given right that doesn't take blood, sweat and tears to make available. And to top it off they are too good for the current job.

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

Didn't say anything about increasing the ease of getting student loans said it makes it easier to walk away when you've got less skin in the game.  The fact that it isn't discharged during BK is the only thing that keeps people on the hook.

 

Debt-enslavement?  You make it sound like someone is forcing them to go to college and take out student loans.  Obviously that isn't the case and it's one of life's lessons - when you sign on the dotted line you're responsible for what you're signing.  Kind of like how all adults who are of sound mind, aren't under duress and aren't inebriated are legally liable when they sign a contract.

[Angelsjunky]

I think education is becoming too expensive, too. But how is giving free college going to add more jobs for graduates? The thing is that there are many jobs in the US but we do not have enough STEM or healthcare graduates to fill the need so we are importing them from other countries. 

 

Are students doing anything for the free college? Is college free to all majors?

 

There should always be freedom of choice but there needs to be a planned education system that incentivizes students to get the skills needed in today's and tomorrow's America.  

 

I would add mental health to the mix, as it seems there are a fair number of jobs and that we'll see more and more in the future.

 

As for your question about free college, I don't know - are you asking what I think should happen or what Bernie's plan is? My guess is that Bernie sees it as an extension of K-12, and we don't ask students to do anything for high school so why college? But maybe there could be some kind of "service year" where the potential student picks from a list of service options, and then does it as a gap year either between HS and college or during college. Or even just a semester. It would probably build character.

[Jay]

doesn't really matter:

 

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/bernie-sanders-south-carolina-schedule-219708

 

Bernie's South Carolina surrender

 

and

 

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/sc/south_carolina_democratic_presidential_primary-4167.html

 

RCP averages:

 

South Carolina: Clinton +24.1

Texas: Clinton +16.4

New Jersey: Clinton +31

Maryland: Clinton +34

Georgia: Clinton +38

Ohio: Clinton +15

Virginia: Clinton +17

Minnesota: Clinton +26

Tennessee: Clinton +23

Arkansas: Clinton +28

Oklahoma: Clinton +14

 

Bernie's ahead in Vermont and Mass. though

[Angelsjunky]

And then there's this:

 

http://usuncut.com/politics/bernie-leading-by-six-in-reuters-national-poll/

 

Bernie up by 6 percent nationally, according to latest Reuters poll.

 

I don't expect Bernie to win the nomination as he has little to no support from the party and the media and corporate spin doctors are hard at work invalidating everything he says, but I wouldn't be surprised if he still ends up with the popular vote.

[ABC]

I would add mental health to the mix, as it seems there are a fair number of jobs and that we'll see more and more in the future.

 

As for your question about free college, I don't know - are you asking what I think should happen or what Bernie's plan is? My guess is that Bernie sees it as an extension of K-12, and we don't ask students to do anything for high school so why college? But maybe there could be some kind of "service year" where the potential student picks from a list of service options, and then does it as a gap year either between HS and college or during college. Or even just a semester. It would probably build character.

 

Shouldn't you know his plan before you blindly follow him? I'm not talking about subjects we know nothing about and should let the experts handle but this discussion should have more action steps from the candidate that all we can verbalize is "I don't know his plan".

 

As for an extension of K-12, that will be a stupid plan. Not everyone is meant for college. There are other jobs that need schooling that doesn't involve college.

 

Again, we are not producing enough STEM and healthcare graduates to the point that they are being imported. That needs to be fixed fast.

[Angelsjunky]

CF8, how many supporters of any presidential candidates know the details of their candidate's plan?

 

I understand the basics and the underlying ideology, and some of the details. But I'm not a "blind follower" if I don't know exactly every step involved every single aspect of Bernie's plan.

 

As far as "free college" goes, I know he plans to pay for it with a Wall Street tax and that it would include public universities and community colleges. Seems like a good idea and at least worth a try.

 

I agree with you that not everyone should go to college, but you mistook what I meant. I don't mean mandatory like K-12 (or at least K through 16 years old), but the idea that it is an extension of the educational process. But yeah, maybe it should include vocational schools and trainings as well.

 

As for STEM and healthcare, maybe the 'Bernie Plan' could be implemented in stages, starting with healthcare (including mental health) and then STEM and then everything else.