[hey mtangelsfan] How Bernie pays for his proposals

[nate]

Yep.  As I said he is a sound byte.  He says absurd things that he knows his followers will be all over because they do not understand the background or significance of the statement.

[Angelsjunky]

I actually think his tax plan, free college, universal heath care, etc are secondary, as he knows how difficult those will be to get through Congress. I'm sure he'll do his best, but the main thing he wants to do is get money out of politics, get rid of Citizens United, etc, all of which will pave the way for further change and more progressive non-establishment candidates to come. So in a way you guys should support Bernie, because his presidency increases the likelihood that you'll actually see a legit libertarian candidacy some day, and the break-up of two-party politics.

[Angelsjunky]

Of course he does. It's an easy appeal to emotion to a group of people who have no idea how business works

 

Except for those that do know how business works and support him anyway.

[Angelsjunky]

Yep.  As I said he is a sound byte.  He says absurd things that he knows his followers will be all over because they do not understand the background or significance of the statement.

 

This is silly. All politicians do this, Bernie far less than most. You're criticizing one of the most honest politicians out there for the dishonesty of politicians in general.

[nate]

Bernie far less than most?  I beg to differ.  His whole platform of free college and healthcare is one giant sound byte without and background or substance.

[Crampknees]

In reality all politicians are just sound bytes.  I try to listen to the Bern but find I can't,  he is just yelling gibberish and reminds me of Trumps uncle Daryl.  

 

At the same time Trump can say "I am going to do something and it will be something and we will all have that something and we will make America great again, or something."  Everyone starts screaming in jubilation.  I wan't to say you do realize he just said nothing, don't you. 

 

So if Trump can pull that off why can't people believe Bernie's sound bytes?

[Angelsjunky]

But the question is, do you think he believes in it or not? My sense is that he strongly believes in what he is saying and will do what he can to make it happen.

 

Whether or not he'll be able to do anything is another matter. But as far as honesty and integrity, you have to be pretty jaded to think he's disingenuous about his platform.

[nate]

I absolutely do not think he believes in it.  For one thing he has been in government for a long time and he knows his over the moon policies would never get approved.  He has an army of economists who no doubt tell him his policies will not work.

 

Instead he insists he will do it.  It is a lie and he knows it.  He has a campaign manager telling him that it is getting him the young liberal vote so he keeps doing it.

[Spirit]

So, the question is do we think Bernie believes what he saying and thereby shows that he has no idea how business works, or is he business savvy and is just puking up sound bytes for his masses?  

 

In other words, is he an idiot or a charlatan?  

 

 

I'll say, I don't think he's a charlatan.  

[Angelsjunky]

I absolutely do not think he believes in it.  For one thing he has been in government for a long time and he knows his over the moon policies would never get approved.  He has an army of economists who no doubt tell him his policies will not work.

 

Instead he insists he will do it.  It is a lie and he knows it.  He has a campaign manager telling him that it is getting him the young liberal vote so he keeps doing it.

 

Damn, you're cynical. If you think Bernie is dishonest, you must think the Dalai Lama eats fried puppies.

 

Anyhow, some economists disagree with you. Are they lying, idiots, etc? Note that Gerard Friedman's analysis has only been refuted with knee-jerk reactionism, not actual counter-analysis (as far as I can tell).

 

Again, try to look at it not as right or wrong, true or false, but different strategies based upon different value systems.

[nate]

AJ, do you think that Bernie believed what he said when he compared mortgage rates to student loan rates?

[Angelsjunky]

AJ, do you think that Bernie believed what he said when he compared mortgage rates to student loan rates?

 

I don't remember the quote you're talking about. But to answer your underlying question, do I think that Bernie is 100% honest and upfront in every moment? I doubt it. Do I think he believes in his political philosophy and platform? Absolutely. Do I think he thinks he can actually make it in 4-8 years? Probably not, but I think he can turn the country in a good direction so that others can continue the work.

 

Even if he doesn't get the nomination, I think he's made a huge impact and that we'll see more progressive platforms. The country has moved strongly to the right over the last few decades, but I think this has more to do with politicians and who they represent (the wealthy, generally) rather than the people ourselves.

[Jay]

But the question is, do you think he believes in it or not?

 

if he does then he's an idiot.

[Angelsjunky]

if he does then he's an idiot.

 

Spoken like a true Trump supporter.

[nate]

Here it is, the most economically literate tweet by a presidential candidate of all time.

 

 

Bernie SandersVerified account‏@SenSanders

You have families out there paying 6, 8, 10 percent on student debt but you can refinance your homes at 3 percent. What sense is that?

 

That moment right there is when I knew that Sanders is a fraud that is just running on whatever sound byte gets him the vote.

[Spirit]

Here it is, the most economically literate tweet by a presidential candidate of all time.

 

 

That moment right there is when I knew that Sanders is a fraud that is just running on whatever sound byte gets him the vote.

 

 

But is he really a fraud, or just an idiot? 

 

 

Asking for a friend.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

you're welcome, Glen

[Angelsjunky]

Here it is, the most economically literate tweet by a presidential candidate of all time.

 

 

That moment right there is when I knew that Sanders is a fraud that is just running on whatever sound byte gets him the vote.

 

I love how a tweet invalidates a president to you. LOL.

 

Anyhow, I don't know enough about home refinancing to make a judgement either way. What is so wrong with this statement?

[Spirit]

[nate]

I love how a tweet invalidates a president to you. LOL.

 

Anyhow, I don't know enough about home refinancing to make a judgement either way. What is so wrong with this statement?

 

This is pure gold.  Like I said, Bernie's followers right here people.

[Angelsjunky]

What the ****? Because I asked a question? Because I don't know much about home refinancing?

[nate]

It just shows how economically inept his followers are is all.  This is why so many people buy into his crap, they don't understand the economical impact... or understand how a loan works.

 

When a bank issues a mortgage they do it with collateral - the home they are granting the loan on.  A bank would not refinance a home that for example you owe $400k on but is only worth $250k.  The reason that banks can have a lower interest rate on a mortgage is that they know they can sell the home to recoup their money if the person defaults on the loan.

 

Student loans have no collateral other than the education the person receives which is worth nothing if the person taking out the loan defaults.

Edited February 24, 2016 by nate

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

He wouldn't be able to see over the podium.

 

Just kidding Nate.  Also I know we covered this before in another thread not that long ago.  It seems like a scary number of supporters on both sides don't understand basic economic and financial concepts.  

[Angelsjunky]

nate, you do realize that I'm just one person, not all Bernie supporters, right?

 

And you STILL ignore the FACT that many people who know far more about economics than you or I support Bernie. But you continue to ignore that because it doesn't fit your belief system.

 

But thanks for the explanation. That said, it is also now clear that you missed Bernie's point. The way I interpret it is that he is questioning the basic idea that student loan debt should have a higher interest rate than a refinanced mortgage, because someone with a mortgage is likely to be in better economic shape than someone with new student loans. The point being, we should be making it easier for new students, not more difficult.

 

In other words, its another version of the "rigged economy" that makes it increasingly difficult to "move up."

 

What you and others don't get is that Bernie is questioning a lot of the basic assumptions about our system. To some degree you either see what he is talking about, or you don't and simply accept things as they've been. It probably isn't that different from the split between the folks who were involved in the 60s cultural revolutions and those that were stuck in the 50s.

[Angelsjunky]

He wouldn't be able to see over the podium.

 

Just kidding Nate.  Also I know we covered this before in another thread not that long ago.  It seems like a scary number of supporters on both sides don't understand basic economic and financial concepts.  

 

I admit to not having a strong grasp of economics, but I'm also not going to blindly bow to the pundits of Angelspin just because they claim to know what they're talking about. I find it ridiculous how you guys assume that anyone who disagrees with your economic philosophy doesn't know what they're talking about. As I've been saying, there are professional economists who agree with Bernie, just as there are some who disagree.

 

Again, it isn't about right or wrong, it is about different paradigms and philosophies.

[nate]

You missed the point if that is what you take from it AJ.