Paris Shooting: 'Twelve people killed'

[arch stanton]

The disconnect we have here comes from assuming that the locals will see ISIS as a worse option that what they replaced. The Malaki government treated the Sunnis like shit and the Assad regime treated everybody who isn't on their payroll that way. ISIS has empowered a group that's been pummeled for half a century. There's never been a good option for them so you can't always blame them for choosing one you don't agree with,

 

ISIS is a huge threat to them if they get a foothold. National identity is not very prevalent here. Tribal and religious sectarian identity is much more important to them. The official title of the Saudi king is Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques and that's the glue that holds the country together. They like being in the nation that houses the mosques. They believe it's their duty to dictate the Sunni philosophy and won't abide a rivalry since it might cost them support from their hard right wingers and eventually the holy cities.

 

I live in the area where the oil gets refined. I haven't seen any change in police presence or security and the daily routine looks pretty much the same.

[Lhalo]

I work on a Saudi air base. I watch their planes fly out loaded and come back empty. The same thing happens in UAE, Jordan, Egypt, Bahrain. Suicide bombers have started killing Saudi border patrols. They fight this battle everyday. Have been for months. They have even gone on record as saying that it's an Arab problem and they will solve it.

What you left out is that they were part of the group that started this problem when they were funding Al Assad's enemies. If you're trying to convince me that the Saudi's are the good guys then it's going to take a lot more than telling me they're dropping a couple bombs for show.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news_opinion/opinion/op_ed/2015/01/rubin_saudi_flogging_paris_murders_have_same_roots

[arch stanton]

What you left out is that they were part of the group that started this problem when they were funding Al Assad's enemies. If you're trying to convince me that the Saudi's are the good guys then it's going to take a lot more than telling me they're dropping a couple bombs for show.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news_opinion/opinion/op_ed/2015/01/rubin_saudi_flogging_paris_murders_have_same_roots

I would never try to convince anyone that there's any good guy here but at least what they did was to carry out a known punishment for an act known to be deemed an offense. And I can guarantee you they're doing more than dropping a couple bombs for show.

[Gavin]

My biggest problem with this thread is the blanket statements about Muslims. When I traveled to Indonesia, a country with one of the highest Muslim population rates, I felt more than welcomed. In fact, many people wanted to take pictures with me and were extremely nice to me.

I do think that largely had to do with the development of the country itself. Indonesia is by no means a first world country but Jakarta and a few of the other major cities are much more developed and therefore refined. As an example, for anyone who saw or read Lone Survivor he gave a map to one of the villagers who then WALKED it to the military base. Many of these countries are hundreds of years behind us in many aspects of life.

I'm sure the rebuttal will be something to the effect of, "religion is the major cause of this gap." That could be absolutely true. Look at the Dark Ages in the past for another example of religion getting in the way progress of a society. With that being said these countries have had "leaders" forced down their throats for decades. It would be hard to say that a lot of these dictators acted in the best interest of the country as a whole.

I'm fed up with the generalizations. I do think religion, every religion, has caused rifts and sometimes conflict throughout history. It's one of the reasons why I'm not the biggest fan of organized religion. There are, however, other factors here besides religion that have caused these groups to appear. Arch touched on ISIS. I would defer to the, most likely, only member here who actually lives in the Middle East.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Agreed, its good to have arch's perspective for a unique view.

In terms of Indonesia, I still shake my head at their govt hesitation to allow us to help after the tsunami a few years back. But you are correct in the 'not all muslims are bad' statement. The majority have no part in the nonsense the extremists are pushing. Same as not all americans are liberal, conservative, gun owner, hippie, etc etc.

That said, the gap you mentioned between the west (or the 'rest' to be more exact) and the overall population of SWA, north africa etc, only continues to grow.

[ten ocho recon scout]

To piggyback, as much as there exists a large chunk of people over there who simply want to make enough money to raise kids, there is also a large enough poplulation of people there who buy fsr too much into the notion of jihad. It doesnt even need to be violent jihad. But the thought process that only a return to the strict preachings of 'old testament' islam will reward current generation muslims is very prevalent. That group of people wont listen at all to reason...they have no interest in jumping on the bandwagon of education, economics etc. Its weird because they hate so many of the things that exist in the west in terms of free speech, civil tights etc, while ignoring how much things like that have advanced our societies.

[Lhalo]

I would never try to convince anyone that there's any good guy here but at least what they did was to carry out a known punishment for an act known to be deemed an offense. And I can guarantee you they're doing more than dropping a couple bombs for show.

 

I shouldn't have put words in your mouth. My bad.

 

On the other hand they may be doing more than just dropping a couple bombs but I don't think they're doing enough to be considered our eternal friends. The Saudis and Qataris among others (including us) have been meddling in others' affairs and causing vast shitstorms throughout the middle east. It would probably do well for them to stop.

[arch stanton]

I shouldn't have put words in your mouth. My bad.

 

On the other hand they may be doing more than just dropping a couple bombs but I don't think they're doing enough to be considered our eternal friends. The Saudis and Qataris among others (including us) have been meddling in others' affairs and causing vast shitstorms throughout the middle east. It would probably do well for them to stop.

There's plenty that meddle and plenty of rich, well educated men here who fund the knuckleheads who carry out the attacks. That's where the scrutiny belongs. Bin Laden came from one of the wealthiest families in the region. Cutting off the money would help a lot but that's easier said than done.

[Blarg]

If we could develop a cost effective alternative to oil based fuels the middle east returns to being a dustbowl with no economy. The Jihadists become irrelevant with no money source.

Edited January 13, 2015 by notti

[TobiasFunke]

Pretty much Blarg

[gotbeer]

This is what we are dealing with.

 

Saudi cleric declares snowmen as being anti-Islamic

And this is from Saudi Arabia, not ISIS.  

[ten ocho recon scout]

Snowmen are white with big carrot noses.

.... i think i know where youre going with that

[ten ocho recon scout]

In terms of oil, if we finally broke away from needing it, it sure as hell would hit the shieks. But the jihadists, not really. They (for the most part) have nothing to do with it. Not to mention the homegrown ones in the west sho are flocking to syria arent part of it.

Someone mentioned earlier about east asia not having the same problems. Meh, maybe not as much as the middle east. But the phillipines are a hot bed for jihadists. Someone else mentioned indonesia, same thing. North africa etc.

If we didnt need the oil it would help in a ton of ways, but it wouldnt be the end all. Sadly this will go on for generations.

[InsideThePark]

My biggest problem with this thread is the blanket statements about Muslims.

But "they" must be held accountable!

[mtangelsfan]

In terms of oil, if we finally broke away from needing it, it sure as hell would hit the shieks. But the jihadists, not really. They (for the most part) have nothing to do with it. Not to mention the homegrown ones in the west sho are flocking to syria arent part of it.

Someone mentioned earlier about east asia not having the same problems. Meh, maybe not as much as the middle east. But the phillipines are a hot bed for jihadists. Someone else mentioned indonesia, same thing. North africa etc.

If we didnt need the oil it would help in a ton of ways, but it wouldnt be the end all. Sadly this will go on for generations.

 

Hotbed?  I don't think so.  Especially Indonesia and Malaysia.  Also, West Africa is mainly Muslim but there aren't a lot of issues from there either.   

[mtangelsfan]

Malaysia and Indonesia do have constant problems, as well as southern Thailand.

 

Southern Philippines is a no-go area.

 

I'd say the area could be called a hot-bed.

 

Mail, Nigeria...

 

 

Not many more problems than other non-muslim countries in those areas.

 

BTW, where is Mail?

[Tank]

hey-ooo!

[mtangelsfan]

It's the box outside next to the street.

 

Cool, but I haven't seen any terrorist activity around it at all.

 

 

 

 

Mail=not a hotbed of terrorist activity

[ten ocho recon scout]

Hotbed? I don't think so. Especially Indonesia and Malaysia. Also, West Africa is mainly Muslim but there aren't a lot of issues from there either.

The southern PI is a total hotbed MT. The abu sayef and all the other moros have been fighting the govt for generations. Remember that KSM had his main pre 9/11 plot from the PI.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Also, just for discussion, it might suprise people how many 'arabs' were caught throughout afghanistan and iraq during the war...who spoke tagalog.

I think a better example you could make MT would be eastern europe. The muslims there are a lot more moderate, and very pro west. AQ tried to set up shop there in the 90s during the breakup of yugoslavia but failed mostly because the wesr had intervened on their (the muslims) behalf.

Another interesting note is that even the govts of saudi arabia, pakistan etc, who are all very strict muslims, are the primary target at least of AQ. They hate us, but its more that they hate us for keeping the saidi royals in power. AQ's main goal is to create the caliphate in the kingdom. So even though there are plenty of places to live in a strict muslim society, it still isnt strict enough for some people (extremists).

[ten ocho recon scout]

http://m.state.gov/md224831.htm

[Lhalo]

Jury Duty

[gotbeer]

IS video purports to show boy executing 'Russian spies'

Will the bear awake?

[wopphil]

IS video purports to show boy executing 'Russian spies'

Will the bear awake?

Sadly, this constitutes progress for the middle east. Killing via a gunshot to the head is far more humane than sawing off one's head with a knife.

[Tank]

Sadly, this constitutes progress for the middle east. Killing via a gunshot to the head is far more humane than sawing off one's head with a knife.

Have any of watched video of any of the beheadings? I tried to once but just couldn't stick around.