Zach Borenstein

[Toby Ziegler]

And you guys wonder why I despise scouts so much and put zero stock in what they have to say...

 

Get a load of this.

 

Baseball America, in its infinite wisdom, left Zach off its list of top 20 prospects - for the California League.

 

Objectively the best hitter in the league - the MVP - the guy who nearly won the Triple Crown while missing a month of the season - the guy who will likely be the Angels' Minor League Player of the Year - didn't make the cut.

 

Un****ingreal. The sheer ignorance, stupidity, and lack of vision is astounding. I would even go so far as to say that this is malicious. Perhaps anti-Semitism was involved. I really have no other explanation. It's outrageous, that much is certain.

 

Going in the book for sure. Some slights must be remembered for posterity.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Toby Ziegler

[Mudville]

Toby jumps the shark with the anti semitism remark. Suprised Hitler wasn't mentioned.

[Toby Ziegler]

Toby jumps the shark with the anti semitism remark. Suprised Hitler wasn't mentioned.

 

Give me a better explanation for the glaring omission. Anti-Semitism is alive and well. You would have to be naive to completely dismiss that very real and disturbing possibility. Am I paranoid, and do I automatically assume the worst in people? Perhaps, but I've seen it happen too many times to count to be as glib and insensitive as you.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Toby Ziegler

[Inside Pitch]

Give me a better explanation for the glaring omission. Anti-Semitism is alive and well. You would have to be naive to completely dismiss that very real and disturbing possibility. Am I paranoid, and do I automatically assume the worst in people? Perhaps, but I've seen it happen too many times to count to be as glib and insensitive as you.

 

I think you're forgetting they don't really give a shit about results as much as they do how a guy looks.   Their entire game is about projection based on things like age, size, and other tools that can't be measured as easily as actual production.

 

I don't think a guy like your brother will EVER get praise from the BBA type publications -- my guess is they are counting on him struggling next year and already have their stories written saying how he was a Cal League creation.  I genuinely hope he uses that as motivation.

 

I've been as honest with my opinions as possible throughout this thread.  I'm one to harp on park effects and age Vs league, but when you talk about ZB, you're not seeing a guy who's home park was the primary reason for his performance, you're not looking at a guy that's much older and more experienced than the league, if anything an argument can be made that because of where he played his college ball he didn't see much truly advanced pitching.

 

I think ZB is proving he deserves more credit than he has received but the biases against guys like him will likely hang over his head until he steps foot on a MLB field..   Different player, but all the same BS was hung on Kole Calhoun to a degree.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Inside Pitch

[Angel Oracle]

The scouts don't give a $@#*& about non-major college baseball schools, although the Halos picked pitcher Brian Anderson from Wright State 3rd overall in 1993.    That though was a bad pick, as he never really did anything with the Halos. 

 

Borenstein has much more potential than Brian Anderson ever had, granted it's position player vs pitcher. 

[Toby Ziegler]

I've had a chance to cool down, but I I still can't believe this happened. He truly gets no respect. BA's list is offensive.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Toby Ziegler

[David Mueller]

Yeah, it is pretty ridiculous that ZB didn't make the list.  He's not even old for the league, just not particularly young for it.  Supposedly, this list is voted on by the managers in the league.  I am not sure about that, but at any rate, I don't pay much attention to these league lists any more because the team top 10's are a lot better indicator.

 

Not sure how the best hitter in the league BY FAR misses the list, though.  He's got a very quick bat; it's not like he's going to have trouble catching up to better fastballs.

[Toby Ziegler]

Yeah, it is pretty ridiculous that ZB didn't make the list.  He's not even old for the league, just not particularly young for it.  Supposedly, this list is voted on by the managers in the league.  I am not sure about that, but at any rate, I don't pay much attention to these league lists any more because the team top 10's are a lot better indicator.

 

Not sure how the best hitter in the league BY FAR misses the list, though.  He's got a very quick bat; it's not like he's going to have trouble catching up to better fastballs.

 

If he can't crack the top 20 for the Cal League, there is no hope that he'll even be mentioned when BA makes the Angels' top 10 list. Most power will go to Grichuk. Best hitter will go to Cron or Lindsey or Yarbrough. I think he's the best prospect in the organization by leaps and bounds. But what do I know?

 

I'm sure I'll get some flak for this, but I could care less at this point. My top 15 would look like this:

 

1. Zach

2. Mike Morin

3. Taylor Lindsey

4. Randal Grichuk

5. Alex Yarbrough

6. R.J. Alvarez

7. Michael Snyder

8. C.J. Cron

9. Eric Stamets

10. Nick Maronde

11. Mark Sappington

12. Matt Long

13. Michael Fish

14. Jose Rondon

15. Sherman Johnson

 

Kaleb Cowart has to have a bounceback season to get back into the discussion, IMO. If he struggles again next year, if I were him I would strongly consider converting to a pitcher, as he was a dominant high school pitcher. He was clocked at 97 mph. The conversion has worked out pretty well for Joe Nathan, Troy Percival, Kenley Jansen, Sean Doolittle, Rafael Betancourt, Sergio Santos, Jason Motte, Carlos Marmol, Alexi Ogando, etc.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Toby Ziegler

[Tyler]

Interesting.

 

My top 5 looks like this, based off floor and meeting ceiling:

 

1. Taylor Lindsey

2. Zach Borenstein

3. Jose Rondon

4. Mike Morin

5. Randal Grichuk

[Toby Ziegler]

I'd like to see what Rondon can do at a higher level. Same with Fish. Morin was MLB-ready last year, IMO. His changeup is a devastating pitch.

[HaloMilliVanilli]

I'd like to think that the Halo's will give Morin the opp. to make the 2014 bullpen.

[Angel Oracle]

Morin = Halos answer to Joakim Soria, pre-TJ surgery?

[Toby Ziegler]

I was looking at his underlying numbers at Minor League Central. I noticed some very encouraging trends.

 

In 2012 at Cedar Rapids, his line drive rate was 10.3%. The Midwest League average was 15.1%.

 

His line against righties was .287/.365/.516, in spite of a line drive rate of just 10.9%. On the road, he had a .276 ISO.

 

In 2013 at Inland Empire, his line drive rate was 20.5%. The California League average was 16.0%.

 

His line against righties was .342/.408/.705, with a line drive rate of 21.5%. That's a .363 ISO.

 

After he came back from his injury, his line drive rate went up even more, as did his walk rate. In July, his LD% was 24.6 and his BB% was 11.4. In August, his LD% was 24.7 and his BB% was 14.4.

 

Bottom line: he doubled his line drive rate from a year ago, which goes to show how much harder he hit the ball this year than last year. He wasn't squaring the ball up nearly as much last season. As I see it, there are four primary reasons for his development as a hitter:

 

1. He added a toe tap this year, which really helped his timing quite a bit. In the past because of his great bat speed he would have a tendency to sometimes be out in front. But now that he has the toe tap timing mechanism down, he has virtually eliminated this problem. Apart from the toe tap, he has a very quiet approach; there is very little wasted movement, which is as it should be.

 

2. He managed to shorten his swing and use his lower half to generate more power. If his swing was at all loopy before, it is not so much now. Ever since I can remember, he always had a ton of top spin on the ball, which I know would frustrate him at times. Now that he's creating more backspin, he's elevating the ball a lot more and it's flying. This has allowed him to finally tap into his raw power, which I can say without boast is substantial.

 

3. He's not getting himself out as much as he used to by expanding the strike zone. He has a better idea of how pitchers are going to pitch to him and what they'll throw in different counts.

 

4. He's using the whole field now. He went oppo with regularity this year, something my dad and I have always urged him to do. After a time, he noticed pitchers were working him outside. Understandably, they didn't want to give him anything middle and in. He just took what the pitchers were giving him and went with the pitches. And if they made a mistake, they usually paid for it.

 

He's also always been very good at not popping the ball up in the infield. Last year his IFB% was 4.7. This year it was 4.9.

 

He's hit fewer and fewer groundballs every year as well, which is another factor in his power surge.

 

Lastly, he had a .415 BABIP against lefties this year, which probably inflated his .321 AVG against them some, but on the flip side his LD% against lefties was 17.6. Last year, it was 7.8 and the year before it was 10.5. Overall, in 233 career PAs against lefties he has held his own, posting a line of .279/.358/.431.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Toby Ziegler

[Tyler]

I wonder if he'll skip AA like Calhoun did.

[Second Base]

I'm relatively certain the folks at Baseball America didn't think to themselves, "Hmmmm Borenstein....sounds awfully Jewish to me.  I better leave him off the list.  Wouldn't want to anger any remaining Germans that are still openly racist."

 

It's highly more likely they see this every year.  Someone comes to the Cal League, not particularly young, didn't put up the numbers at any previous level, wasn't a high draft choice and just crushes the ball.  I know, I know, your brother is different and comparing him to Daniel Nava is a sin to you, but you have to look at it from their view.  

 

They see it EVERY YEAR and nine times out of ten, those guys go on to AA and flame out.  I don't think your brother is that guy, but if you're in the business of predictions (that's what prospect evaluation is, guesses vs education guesses), putting your eggs in the Borenstein basket just doesn't make a ton of sense.  

 

Zach just isn't the type of prospect BA specializes in.  They aren't digging deep to uncover rare jewels.  They're evaluating the ones already found.  IF your brother crushes it in AA in the Texas League, you can bet BA will write more about him.  

[Toby Ziegler]

Don't tell me you think leaving him off the Cal League's top 20 list was justifiable? The athleticism pretense Shonerd used is obvious and grossly inaccurate.

 

Watch him run. Look at his physique. Not athletic? Give me a break. He was told by a trainer last year that he could play right now on special teams in the NFL. And he didn't play football in high school or college, let alone Pop Warner. He's got game on the basketball court, too. Anyone with a set of eyes should be able to see the athleticism.

 

I don't care what BA writes about him in the future. I've lost all respect for them. BA is spewing out BS. They dropped the ball, and they should have been camping under it.

 

Just because anti-Semitism isn't as overt as it used to be doesn't mean it no longer exists. Jews are probably the most maligned and persecuted religious group in recorded history. If racism and homophobia are alive and well, you can bet anti-Semitism is as well.

 

One way or another, Zach is a victim of prejudice. Could be anti-Semitism. Could be prospect prejudice. Could be both. Either way, he got screwed.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Toby Ziegler

[Angel Oracle]

How does someone with a quick and compact swing like Zach's, and who dominated the Cal League at not THAT much of an older age than average for that league, get left off of the top 20 list?

 

I guess he'll just have to hammer Texas League/PCL pitching in 2014, and then hopefully BA finally gets their heads out of where the sun don't shine. 

Edited October 17, 2013 by Angel Oracle

[Tyler]

Maybe even a strong AFL performance.

[Blarg]

Watched him yesterday in Surprise. He got a late start on a line drive and missed it on a dive where he should have just conceded the single instead the runner ended up on second. Worked a couple of walks and was able to score which helped the Solar Sox keep their undefeated record.

[David Mueller]

I just think the BA folks think "if player x was that good, he would have been drafted earlier, so he must not be that good"

 

It's a stupid philosophy - even Trout was taken in the late 1st round, and now he's looking like he might be the greatest player any of us have ever seen.

 

The scouts and teams are smart, but there are guys that surprise everybody.  Zach just has to go on surprising them, and I'm pretty sure that he'll do it.

[Angel Oracle]

Or the ones that slipped waaaay down, like Mike Piazza in round 62 in the late 1980s

[Second Base]

If Zach hits above .280 and smacks 20+ HR's in the Texas League this year, he'll have a lot more believers.  He's cursed by the guys that came before him, which isn't fair to him or anyone but is the cold hard truth.  Brandon Wood and Mark Trumbo put up outstanding numbers (Wood's were historic) at the same age or younger than Zach with scouts being more aware of their skills. 

 

It really didn't matter what Zach did this year.  He could've hit .350 with 50 HR's and scouts would've said the same exact thing they're saying now, which is "let's see what he does in AA".  And I'm saying the same thing too.  I'm really looking forward to seeing Borenstein face more advanced competition in a less hitting friendly environment and finding if he can make the adjustments.

 

If he does, he can carve out a role for himself in the majors.  If he doesn't, we'll have our answer for now as to how legitimate his numbers in the Cal League were.  With time comes more answers. 

[tdawg87]

Don't tell me you think leaving him off the Cal League's top 20 list was justifiable? The athleticism pretense Shonerd used is obvious and grossly inaccurate.

 

Watch him run. Look at his physique. Not athletic? Give me a break. He was told by a trainer last year that he could play right now on special teams in the NFL. And he didn't play football in high school or college, let alone Pop Warner. He's got game on the basketball court, too. Anyone with a set of eyes should be able to see the athleticism.

 

I don't care what BA writes about him in the future. I've lost all respect for them. BA is spewing out BS. They dropped the ball, and they should have been camping under it.

 

Just because anti-Semitism isn't as overt as it used to be doesn't mean it no longer exists. Jews are probably the most maligned and persecuted religious group in recorded history. If racism and homophobia are alive and well, you can bet anti-Semitism is as well.

 

One way or another, Zach is a victim of prejudice. Could be anti-Semitism. Could be prospect prejudice. Could be both. Either way, he got screwed.

 

Oh my god.

[Toby Ziegler]

If Zach hits above .280 and smacks 20+ HR's in the Texas League this year, he'll have a lot more believers.  He's cursed by the guys that came before him, which isn't fair to him or anyone but is the cold hard truth.  Brandon Wood and Mark Trumbo put up outstanding numbers (Wood's were historic) at the same age or younger than Zach with scouts being more aware of their skills. 

 

It really didn't matter what Zach did this year.  He could've hit .350 with 50 HR's and scouts would've said the same exact thing they're saying now, which is "let's see what he does in AA".  And I'm saying the same thing too.  I'm really looking forward to seeing Borenstein face more advanced competition in a less hitting friendly environment and finding if he can make the adjustments.

 

If he does, he can carve out a role for himself in the majors.  If he doesn't, we'll have our answer for now as to how legitimate his numbers in the Cal League were.  With time comes more answers. 

 

I get what you're saying, but you can't hold it against Zach that Wood turned out to be a huge bust. Nor can you hold it against him that he thrived in a hitter's league. Wood also played at Rancho, which is definitely a hitter's park. Trumbo played at Rancho as well. And Zach had a significantly better season than Trumbo had when he was in High-A. Trumbo may be a bit one-dimensional, but he at least does one thing exceedingly well in MLB. Besides, Zach has a much different swing and approach than either of those players. Apples to oranges.

 

And I'm curious. After the poor season Cron had in AA, are you ready to write him off yet?

 

If scouts think that Zach only succeeded this year because of the Cal League hitting environment, then I don't even know where to begin. Being skeptical is one thing. Being blind is entirely different.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Toby Ziegler

[Toby Ziegler]

Oh my god.

 

You've got something to say? Say it. 

 

He was a victim of some form of discrimination. Anti-Semitism. Prospect prejudice. Take your pick. It happened. I obviously took exception to it. Do you think anything I said was illegitimate? Speak up and be a man.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Toby Ziegler