Zach Borenstein

[Angelsjunky]

Good read AJ.

 

I think people can get a little torqued when they see letter grades but if  a guy like Sickels were to give him a B- grade, it would be an indication of his being on the rise as far as prospects go.   Also, I'm of the opinion that a .750 OPS is the new .850 OPS.   When AL 1B average a .775 OPS, an .800 OPS from anyone makes them a fringe star

 

The numbers have definitely gone down, with 2009 being the last year of the "Roid Era" of inflated offense.

 

I'm a big fan of Sickels, who I think finds the best balance between sabermetric analysis and traditional scouting. His grading system isn't inflated school grades - a B- prospect is actually pretty good, someone who is a likely major leaguer with an outside chance of being a borderline star. For his 2013 list, that was Cron, Grichuk and Lindsey.

[Toby Ziegler]

Toby, I am not trying to start an argument with this question, but I am curious. Since Nava, in your mind, is not a fair comparison to your brother, who in your mind would be his ceiling in the majors? What (who) do you think his floor is in the majors?

 

I really couldn't say. But I know his ceiling is much higher than Nava's.

[Stradling]

I truly hope you are right, but I would take Nava, he is a very solid Major Leaguer.

[Second Base]

Nava is extremely applicable given the situation.  Any minor leaguer, particularly Zach would have to consider it a success if he carves out a full-time role on a playoff caliber team and succeeds in that role.  He's one of those players who's performance is above his tools, and I love that type of player.  Looking at Zach right now, he's that type of player. 

[Toby Ziegler]

Nava is extremely applicable given the situation.  Any minor leaguer, particularly Zach would have to consider it a success if he carves out a full-time role on a playoff caliber team and succeeds in that role.  He's one of those players who's performance is above his tools, and I love that type of player.  Looking at Zach right now, he's that type of player. 

 

He does not play above his tools; he has nice tools. I believe he has the best power tool in the farm system. His hit tool has come a long way this year. He has above average speed.

 

Look man, I appreciate what you're trying to do here. But it's not a flattering comparison when you also said that Nava is his ceiling. That's where I'm coming from. Why don't you reserve judgment and let him keep playing before you determine how good he can be?

[HaloMilliVanilli]

Just had to go and pull that thread didn't ya.  Here we go.

[Toby Ziegler]

You're his brother, so I'll just leave it at this, you're incorrect but it's understandable because you're bias.  That much is so easy to forgive, it's even expected.  But earlier you said you aren't delusional, I think you just proved yourself wrong.  I'll do my best not to be goated into an argument here because I know where you take it every time, but you're just so far off in your judgement of others and willingness to listen that it's prevented you from anything comprehensible.  

 

Come on, dude. You're the one who is trying to goad (not goat) me into an argument!

 

You brought up Nava again, and I've already explained my position on that comp. You also keep giving Zach the backhanded compliment that he plays above his skill set.

 

I've brought up legitimate points about Cron and Grichuk in other threads, which you subsequently ignored. Evidently, I'm not the only one who is unwilling to listen.

 

I recognize that I'm biased. How can I possibly deny it? That doesn't mean everything I say should be so easily dismissed. It's a nice card to play, though.

 

Is it really so farfetched to say that Zach has the most power in the farm system and that his hit tool has also become a plus tool?

[Toby Ziegler]

A guy lobbying to be Zach's agent gave my dad an old scouting report of Zach from when he was in college by a scout named C. Heidt. Here are the contents of the scouting report, word-for-word:

 

 

Hitting Ability: Present: 4/Future: 5 - Compact stroke w/ plus bat spd. Drives ball to all fields.

Power: Present: 4/Future: 6 - Tremendous strength & quickness generates impressive LD pwr.

Running Speed: Present: 4/Future: 4 - 6.65 60 indicates plus run, but big hacks limit time to 1B.

Base Running: Present: 4/Future: 5 - Must improve run tech, but agg play leads to stolen bases.
Arm Strength: Present: 5/Future: 5 - Solid zip & on-line carry.

Arm Accuracy: Present: 4/Future: 5 - On target w/ most throws

Fielding: Present: 4/Future: 5 - Ath enuf to make adjs, needs pro instruction to see results.

Range: Present: 4/Future: 5 - Must harness plus foot spd.

Baseball Instinct: Present: 4/Future: 5 - Games don't come ez, but intense worker will make adjs.

Aggressiveness: Present: 6/Future: 6 - Competes on every play w/ bull in China shop approach

 

Physical Description: Lg frame. Strong, durable build. Broad shoulders w/ defined chest. Trim waist w/ powerful lower half. Impressive physical strength. Sim to a stronger version of former ML, Hank Blalock.

 

Abilities: Compact stroke w/ blur-like bat spd. Centers ball w/ LD thunder, can yank balls & flick them out of yard. Tools to play 3B w/ avg arm & soft hands. Plus str line spd. Good ath. Intense competitor.

 

Weaknesses: Doesn't trust hands enuf, must allow pitch to run deeper & let bat spd take over. New to CF pos, fish out of water approach.

 

Summation: LH col bat w/ juice. Coach has moved him to CF, but I believe best suited for his previous pos, 3B. Best bat spd in my area and also has easiest pwr. Gut feel plyr who will thrive in pro BB. Plus make-up.

[mtangelsfan]

You're his brother, so I'll just leave it at this, you're incorrect but it's understandable because you're bias.  That much is so easy to forgive, it's even expected.  But earlier you said you aren't delusional, I think you just proved yourself wrong.  I'll do my best not to be goated into an argument here because I know where you take it every time, but you're just so far off in your judgement of others and willingness to listen that it's prevented you from anything comprehensible.  

 

this is silly, you have no idea what his ceiling will be.  It's just a big guess.  To tell him he's wrong or delusional when you are just making a guess is delusional. 

[Angelsjunky]

To be honest, I'm veering towards liking Borenstein more than Cron or Grichuk, if only because he's actually dominated at a level in the minors where neither Cron or Grichuk have, and have actually been pretty mediocre this year. But even more so, it is easy to get excited about Borenstein because he's surprising relative to expectations, whereas Cron, Grichuk and Cowart are all performing below expectations. To me Cron has been the most underwhelming of the lot - his numbers just keep going down each year as he goes up the system, which is a major warning sign, imo. I still think he'll be a major leaguer, but I'm thinking more of a power platoon hitter ala Russell Branyan. Grichuk I have no idea - but I suspect something similar, although with less power and more average. Maybe Gabe Kapler.

 

But again, I think we need to see how Borenstein will do in AA. The biggest jump in baseball, other than AAA to the majors, is probably A+ to AA. Once you get to AA you start playing not only legit prospects, but legit prospects far along in their development, plus a good amount of "AAA overflow" - minor league journeymen who have been around for awhile.

[Second Base]

Right on point AJ, AA is the great divider.  It's shown flaws in Cron, in that despite his immense power, his inability to consistently square up pitches has left him vulnerable.  Grichuk's power has certainly transferred over, but we;ve also seen flaws in his approach, which have led to more stiekouts and more swings and misses than we've come to expect.  At the same time, it's given us a gauge to measure Taylor Lindsey's development.  The power, discipline and contact have all increased or stayed the same.  

 

You'll have to excuse me if I'm extremely skeptical of Borenstein.  Last season, in a relatively neutral setting against competition generally younger than him, Borenstein managed to hit .266 with 11 HR's.  Granted he's made some adjustments but the .340 batting average 23 HR's look extremely fake to the discerning eye.  His K/BB ratio has remained constant, he doesn't look particularly taller or stronger than he did a year ago.  This is Cal League inflation at it's finest.  

 

I like Borenstein as an overall package because he does a little bit in every category.  But I'm not going to be entirely surprised if he ends up hitting .270 with 15 HR's next year and we have to read Toby poppin' off about how it's all the Angels fault for messing him up and that he wishes Zach would be traded. 

[Toby Ziegler]

Just stop posting in this thread. You're a complete buzzkill.

 

And I really wish you'd stop making stuff up.

 

The average age in the Midwest League last year was 21.6 for hitters and 21.8 for pitchers. Zach was 21 for most of the season.

 

The average OPS in the Midwest League was .705. Cedar Rapid's OPS as a team was .688. Doesn't sound like a neutral environment to me. Sounds like a pitcher's league. Zach's OPS was .824. Kaleb Cowart's was .827.

 

Zach has done nothing but rake this year and was also very solid last year in a pitcher's league. Your eye is no more discerning than anyone else's; you just think it is.

 

Instead of predicting Zach will be underwhelming in AA based off nothing but resentment for me and a misguided prejudice against later draft picks, go talk some more about how you were "drooling" over Grichuk's power as a five o'clock hitter. 

[Scott34]

FWIW, In terms of raw power I still have Grichuk a notch above Borenstein. 

[mtangelsfan]

Just stop posting in this thread. You're a complete buzzkill.

 

And I really wish you'd stop making stuff up.

 

The average age in the Midwest League last year was 21.6 for hitters and 21.8 for pitchers. Zach was 21 for most of the season.

 

The average OPS in the Midwest League was .705. Cedar Rapid's OPS as a team was .688. Doesn't sound like a neutral environment to me. Sounds like a pitcher's league. Zach's OPS was .824. Kaleb Cowart's was .827.

 

Zach has done nothing but rake this year and was also very solid last year in a pitcher's league. Your eye is no more discerning than anyone else's; you just think it is.

 

Instead of predicting Zach will be underwhelming in AA based off nothing but resentment for me and a misguided prejudice against later draft picks, go talk some more about how you were "drooling" over Grichuk's power as a five o'clock hitter. 

 

Toby, you don't come off well when you badmouth other prospects.  I'm glad Zach is having a good season, I want that for all of our prospects.

[Toby Ziegler]

FWIW, In terms of raw power I still have Grichuk a notch above Borenstein. 

 

Maybe he does. All I know is my brother has hit balls around 500 feet before.

[Scott34]

Maybe he does. All I know is my brother has hit balls around 500 feet before.

 

That means nothing.  Have you seen Grichuk's HS scouting video in Tampa?

 

This isn't a knock on Zach. Having the 2nd best raw power in the system is nothing to sneeze at.

[Toby Ziegler]

Toby, you don't come off well when you badmouth other prospects.  I'm glad Zach is having a good season, I want that for all of our prospects.

 

That may be. Does Scotty come off well when he badmouths Zach?

[Toby Ziegler]

That means nothing.  Have you seen Grichuk's HS scouting video in Tampa?

 

This isn't a knock on Zach. Having the 2nd best raw power in the system is nothing to sneeze at.

 

He put on a show and looked like a man child - with an aluminum bat. I would argue that BP with metal means nothing.

[Stradling]

That may be. Does Scotty come off well when he badmouths Zach?

That is the issue Toby, you are the only one that thinks what he says is bad mouthing him. He compared him to a major league starter on a first place team and you were offended by the comparison. That is just silly and myopic. It's not like he compared him to Willits. He says things like he plays above his skill level, that is not an insult. Because of the situation you are in you feel these are slights to him. I hope he is an amazing player that plays above his skill level no matter what that skill level may be.

[Stradling]

Oh and can't you make a post without saying things like "5 O'clock hitter".

[mtangelsfan]

That may be. Does Scotty come off well when he badmouths Zach?

 

You know I have already posted to him about it, but this post wasn't about him, it was about you.

[HaloMilliVanilli]

Nava has 341 PA's this season.  If his current numbers were prorated over approx. 600 ABs he would generate a .280 BA, .370 OBP, 16 hrs, 90 runs, 90 rbi's.  Hell, even his production in 341 PA's appearances is great for a platoon.  Minor leaguers are not guaranteed to ever make the MLB roster, so scoffing at a comparison to Nava is ridiculous.

[Toby Ziegler]

1-3, 1 BB, 1 HBP, 1 HR (24th), 1 RBI, 1 run scored

 

The HR was an opposite field blast that hit off the scoreboard in Lancaster.

[Tyler]

Any word on a promotion to AA yet? Or is he still not fully healthy?

[stevestevens]

1-3, 1 BB, 1 HBP, 1 HR (24th), 1 RBI, 1 run scored

The HR was an opposite field blast that hit off the scoreboard in Lancaster.

2 k's also

Not posting that to mock in any way. For some reason I always like to track the K/BB ratio of hitting prospects.

There is no doubt your bro is dominating. Should be exciting to watch him in AA whenever that may be