Why is Autry beloved but Moreno isn't?

[cals]

The old, white, conservative Angel fans don’t like some Mexican guy buying their baseball team and marrying a white woman.

[Blarg]

19 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

In hindsight, Arte should have probably done his best to keep Stoneman. I don't remember why he left, but that's when the current troubles started. Stoneman left in 2007 and the Angels had another couple good seasons, and were still reasonably solid through 2015, but keeping Stoneman and then asking him to build up a system for the future would have helped.

Moreno did keep Stoneman on as a consultant many years after he stepped down as GM. In fact he was the interim GM when DiPoto stormeed off.

In interviews he said the job changed to 24/7 with no days off and he just wanted more time to spend with family. If you notice more GMs are in their late 30's and early 40's now to keep up with demands of the job. 

[Blarg]

10 minutes ago, cals said:

The old, white, conservative Angel fans don’t like some Mexican guy buying their baseball team and marrying a white woman.

You should get over it, it's been 20 years. 

[Inside Pitch]

Arte meddles no doubt -- but let's not forget the PR campaign a certain GM ran to basically absolve himself of all blame even after he attempted to take credit for everything years earlier.

2 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

In hindsight, Arte should have probably done his best to keep Stoneman. I don't remember why he left, but that's when the current troubles started. Stoneman left in 2007 and the Angels had another couple good seasons, and were still reasonably solid through 2015, but keeping Stoneman and then asking him to build up a system for the future would have helped. But instead he brought in Reagins who is probably overly-maligned as much of the bad stuff that happened, starting with Vernon Wells, was due to Arte's meddling.

Stoneman had turned down the GM spot in Montreal multiple times.  He finally decided to take the job (in Anaheim) after becoming an empty nester, he was very public about his reasons for not pursuing a GM job previously.  He comes to Anaheim, goes about rebuilding the old Expos player and development system and put together a bottom up stacked franchise.  Then his kids had kids and he wanted to be a Grandpa..  It was that easy. I don't think there was any amount of money that Arte could have given Stoney to keep him around

Stoneman steps down and the guy known as the kingmaker in Montreal, the dude that essentially hand picked Dave Dombrowski, Dan Duquette, Kevin Malone, Jim Beattie as GMs and was said to have suggested the Expos pursue Larry Beinfest to fill his job as assistant GM after he had left, recommended Reagins for the job. Reagins biggest issue seems to have been that he lacked the confidence of some of his underlings, which may have opened the door for Arte to go Arte on him.  The Wells trade is said to have been the breaking point for the TR/Arte marriage.  I've seen it written that Arte basically told him make the move or find a new job, I've also had people who had a more nuanced connection say the breakdown was due to how ill prepared the team was entering that winter -- too loosey goosey for Arte. 

There is no question the Angels would have remained a powerhouse had Stoneman not moved on IMO, he just had a knack for identifying talent and letting them work and his success meant that Arte knew better than to question him. If Arte will go down in Angels history as the biggest meddler ever, Stoneman has to go down as the greatest "delegator" in Angels history, he gave people a lot of autonomy while always having a say in the final decision.  

The one thing the man seemed to fail at was signing FA CFers.... lol.

 

[Angelsjunky]

56 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Arte meddles no doubt -- but let's not forget the PR campaign a certain GM ran to basically absolve himself of all blame even after he attempted to take credit for everything years earlier.

Stoneman had turned down the GM spot in Montreal multiple times.  He finally decided to take the job (in Anaheim) after becoming an empty nester, he was very public about his reasons for not then pursuing a GM job.  He comes to Anaheim, goes about rebuilding the old Expos player and development system and put together a bottom up stacked franchise.  Then his kids had kids and he wanted to be a Grandpa..  It was that easy. I don't think there was any amount of money that Arte could have given Stoney to keep him around

Stoneman steps down and the guy known as the kingmaker in Montreal, the dude that essentially hand picked Dave Dombrowski, Dan Duquette, Kevin Malone, Jim Beattie as GMs and was said to have suggested the Expos pursue Larry Beinfest to fill his job as assistant GM after he had left recommended Reagins for the job. Reagins biggest issue seems to have been that he lacked the confidence of some of his underlings, which may have opened the door for Arte to go Arte on him.  The Wells trade is said to have been the breaking point for the TR/Arte marriage.  I've seen it written that Arte basically told him make the move or find a new job, I've also had people who had a more nuanced connection say the breakdown was due to how ill prepared the team was entering that winter -- too loosey goosey for Arte. 

There is no question the Angels would have remained a powerhouse had Stoneman not moved on IMO, he just had a knack for identifying talent and letting them work and his success meant that Arte knew better than to question him. If Arte will go down in Angels history as the biggest meddler ever, Stoneman has to go down as the greatest "delegator" in Angels history, he gave people a lot of autonomy while always having a say in the final decision.  

The one thing the man seemed to fail at was signing FA CFers.... lol.

 

OK, that makes sense. And I can't fault him for wanting to focus on the important stuff.

As for the rest, I think as a general rule, great leaders are great delegators. No leader can know everything, and one of the most important aspects of leadership is knowing your own limitations and therefore know how to consult people that know more about specific things than you do. A good leader surrounds himself (or herself or themself, ok @Taylor?) with people to consult with - that know more than they do. Otherwise you end up as a petty tyrant.

 

[floplag]

A fair question.. for me, i remember Autry doing his best.. he was the uber wealthy guy that could go ham and he legit had to live within a budget but he loved the game.
Arte, to me, hasnt done that, and the game is more of a business to him then any love, at least thats my view without knowing the man personally.  He came in with a lot of promises, and maybe the game changed around hium or maybe he just didnt think it worth it but whatever the reason he just hasnt done what i would call "his best effort" to date.  Hes done whats best for the business, not whats best for the baseball team.
To be fair my memories might be a little faded but thats how i remember it. 

[cals]

4 hours ago, Blarg said:

You should get over it, it's been 20 years. 

It didn’t bother me before but as I enter that demographic it’s bothering me more.  Damn Mexicans ruining everything.

[notherhalo]

22 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

There are a few factors.

One is nostalgic hindsight. We are emotional beings that are prone to re-configure reality to suit a certain narrative. Older fans remember the old Cowboy being wheeled out to games and a certain collective affection for him ("win one for the cowboy").

Another is Arte as meddler extraordinaire. Related to that is a third: Arte enabled Bill Stoneman to build a perennial contender then essentially dismantled it once he was gone. 

So it isn't just that under his tenure the Angels had a great run, it is that his active involvement destroyed that and sent the franchise on a tail-spin that they haven't recovered from.

It isn't all bad. But I'm not sure if any of the good things can be directly attributed to Moreno. Sure, Trout was drafted during his ownership, but it isn't like he was prodding Tony Reagins and saying, "I want the chunky kid from New Jersey." He paid for Ohtani's first contract, but it isn't like he had to back the truck up and really that was all Billy Eppler.

In hindsight, Arte should have probably done his best to keep Stoneman. I don't remember why he left, but that's when the current troubles started. Stoneman left in 2007 and the Angels had another couple good seasons, and were still reasonably solid through 2015, but keeping Stoneman and then asking him to build up a system for the future would have helped. But instead he brought in Reagins who is probably overly-maligned as much of the bad stuff that happened, starting with Vernon Wells, was due to Arte's meddling.

I asked about Stoneman once at a fanfest (next to Percy, so it was a while ago) and Tim Mead (I think) said

yeah hes still around just a more limited role

I guessed that Stoneman didnt want to work so much

[Taylor]

On 7/31/2023 at 7:29 AM, cals said:

The old, white, conservative Angel fans don’t like some Mexican guy buying their baseball team and marrying a white woman.

I like how my post about Autry being a good Christian man got deleted, but this one didn't.

cals has plot armor.

[cals]

5 hours ago, Taylor said:

I like how my post about Autry being a good Christian man got deleted, but this one didn't.

cals has plot armor.

Stop stalking me weirdo.

[AngelStew43]

I'd say it was mostly about drafting.  From the mid-60's on, the Angels rarely drafted the best players available.  Often, it was about signability.  In the FA era, Mr. Autry had the same weakness that Arte has, he wanted to pay for what the player had already done, not what he was going to do.  

This is what is happening right now with Anthony Rendon.  His best years were with Washington, obviously.  I doubt the Angels ever see that player again. 

[Chico]

Autrey created the L.A. Angels in 1961. Moreno is a carpetbagger.

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

On 7/30/2023 at 2:14 PM, Torridd said:

From the start I'll say that I'm a huge Autry fan and am disillusioned by Moreno. However, we didn't win much under Autry and none of his teams had playoff streaks like Moreno's. Why was Autry so loved?    

Because Arte can't sing worth a damn.

[Mark68]

I actually liked Jackie Autry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because she wasn't Georgia Frontiere.

[Mark68]

I think the bottom line is this:

 

Autry ran the team as a fan.

Moreno runs it as a business. 

[Farmbuildingfan]

I think Autry was worst then Moreno, but he  was such a kind hearted fellow with a warm personality that it would have been politically incorrect to criticize him.

In 1981 I called Angel talk with Bob Rowe to criticize Autry for trading all his best young players.

He did not disagree, but could not agree fully since Autry owned KMPC

.Bob Rowe did go on a rant about how the Angels needed to hold onto a list of young players, but of course they were traded

[Farmbuildingfan]

The front office was interested in " winning one for the cowboy" now, which meant sacrificing the future since Autry was aging

It did not work.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Somebody else made a great point above that answers it perfectly.

Autry was a celebrity when he bought the Angels. Movie and radio star.

Imagine today like Tom Hanks buying a team, and consistently bringing in guys like Pujols (a la Arte) that in fairness means you're really trying to win. (Even if it's bad from a smart baseball standpoint).

 

That was the Cowboy.

 

Arte basically did the same thing. But all anyone really knows is he's a guy that owns the team.

[daygloman]

On 7/30/2023 at 10:31 PM, ten ocho recon scout said:

 

 

The people who still are upset about the name change are silly. 

Moreno has given you plenty to yell about. "Of Anaheim" was (is) stupid. Los Angeles is not.

Rubbish.

The "Los Angeles" name is imbecilic, and "I" for one, will NEVER embrace it.

Moreno should have stuck to being a Billboard magnate, he was excellent in that profession.

Rebranding established baseball teams, he was not so good at.

[Stradling]

6 minutes ago, daygloman said:

Rubbish.

The "Los Angeles" name is imbecilic, and "I" for one, will NEVER embrace it.

Moreno should have stuck to being a Billboard magnate, he was excellent in that profession.

Rebranding established baseball teams, he was not so good at.

Being upset after 20 years is childish and imbecilic. 

[daygloman]

4 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Being upset after 20 years is childish and imbecilic. 

You're entitled to your opion, as I am.

[Lazorko Saves]

On 8/1/2023 at 9:24 AM, Taylor said:

I like how my post about Autry being a good Christian man got deleted, but this one didn't.

cals has plot armor.

It's simple.

Cals makes jokes under the guise of trolling.

Taylor trolls under the guise of making jokes.

[Lazorko Saves]

There's also an obvious grading on a curve here that's applicable.

When Autry ran the team, there were four playoff teams a year.

Now it's, what, 28 teams or something make the playoffs every year?

Arte teams missing the playoffs so often hurts more than when Autry teams missed the playoffs.  And rightly so.

[Farmbuildingfan]

13 minutes ago, Lazorko Saves said:

There's also an obvious grading on a curve here that's applicable.

When Autry ran the team, there were four playoff teams a year.

Now it's, what, 28 teams or something make the playoffs every year?

Arte teams missing the playoffs so often hurts more than when Autry teams missed the playoffs.  And rightly so.

True. In 1979 only 2 of 14 teams made the playoffs.

Six of the seven teams in the East finished with a better record than the Angels

The Angels were actually four games under .500 for the last two- thirds of the season, but as the winners of the West they made it.

In today's format with more teams, they ironically would have likely missed the playoffs with 88 wins

 

 

 

 

[jsnpritchett]

1 minute ago, Farmbuildingfan said:

True. In 1979 only 2 of 14 teams made the playoffs.

Six of the seven teams in the East finished with a better record than the Angels

The Angels were actually four games under .500 for the last two- thirds of the season, but as the winners of the West they made it.

In today's format with more teams, they ironically would have likely missed the playoffs with 88 wins

 

 

 

 

Four.