The culture of this organization.

[oldguy]

12 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

Have we considered the power of a players only meeting? 

I know you're being sarcastic, but, therein lies the problem.  Who will lead this meeting?  Frankly, this is not up Trout's alley, he likes to lead by example (and, unfortunately, he's just not getting it done lately.) Shohei doesn't speak the language well enough (and is probably just marking time), Rendon is just too laid back, and everyone else is fairly new.  Perhaps we could trade Trout for Bryce Harper just to get some fire in the clubhouse.  When we had Lackey, Erstad, Percival, and Weaver the fire was built-in.  Torii Hunter was also a leader, but Albert ruined that dynamic.  On the brighter side, I see that fire in Neto and O'Hoppe.

[AngelFanInTheATL]

12 hours ago, Stradling said:

Call it what you want but an 88 win team is a good team. Yes that series blew. 

88 wins in 1985 was a good team. And in 1995.  Probably even in 2005.

With so many teams tanking now, if you win 88 games, you have to look at the opponents to provide context to the season.  If the Angels get 10 wins against Oakland and let's say 4 against KC, then 14 out of the 88 wins (16 percent) would be against teams not trying to be competitive. 

I think the sign of a good team in 2023 is whether or not you make the playoffs, and how you do once you get there, especially with so many teams eligible.  And yes, I realize the AL Central winner may get in with 84 wins, but nobody is going to consider that team a contender.

So we won't really know if they are a good team until the season ends.

[HaloBronco]

2 hours ago, oldguy said:

I know you're being sarcastic, but, therein lies the problem.  Who will lead this meeting?  Frankly, this is not up Trout's alley, he likes to lead by example (and, unfortunately, he's just not getting it done lately.) Shohei doesn't speak the language well enough (and is probably just marking time), Rendon is just too laid back, and everyone else is fairly new.  Perhaps we could trade Trout for Bryce Harper just to get some fire in the clubhouse.  When we had Lackey, Erstad, Percival, and Weaver the fire was built-in.  Torii Hunter was also a leader, but Albert ruined that dynamic.  On the brighter side, I see that fire in Neto and O'Hoppe.

Agree, future looks good with those two players (O’Hoppe and Neto). 

[HaloBronco]

14 hours ago, REDneck said:

Losing!

Personally, I wouldn’t categorize it as losing.

I would say dysfunctional. 
 
 

[Palomar]

I doubt that this conversation would even be taking place if the Angels had won even 1 of the 3 games against the Marlins. At least this year as I am watching a game and they are losing at any point, I am not surprised that they do have a good chance of coming back. They are much more competitive and fun to watch this year (of course the worst and most frustrating thing is the many errors).  

[Taylor]

Arte, Minasian, Trout, and Ohtani need to see a family counselor together.

[Revad]

22 minutes ago, Palomar said:

I doubt that this conversation would even be taking place if the Angels had won even 1 of the 3 games against the Marlins. At least this year as I am watching a game and they are losing at any point, I am not surprised that they do have a good chance of coming back. They are much more competitive and fun to watch this year (of course the worst and most frustrating thing is the many errors).  

It’s entertaining enough and the team is better than last year, but winning more and making the playoffs would be sweet in what is looking more and more like Ohtani’s last year with us.  

Edited May 29, 2023 by Revad

[Angels 1961]

11 minutes ago, Revad said:

It’s entertaining enough and the team is better than last year, but winning more and making the playoffs would be sweet in what is looking more and more like Ohtani’s last year with us.  

They are 3.5 out of W/C with 4 teams in front of them. If they are 6 or more back at trade deadline, I hope Ohtani is traded among others.

[AngelsLakersFan]

Anaheim is the place where players go to cash checks, hang out at the beach and never get asked a tough question about their performance.

Arte is an owner who is looking for guys he can put on a billboard regardless of performance. He measures success in 3 million fans and operating profit. He didn’t question his own methods until those two things were put into question.

 

[Jeff Fletcher]

16 hours ago, HeavenlyHalos said:

I had a lot of optimism given that the floor of this team seemed much higher than previous seasons and I still have some optimism, but a series like this is really difficult to stomach. 

Isn’t that exactly what’s happened?
 

It seems like everyone is at or well below expectations, and they’re 2 games over .500. 

[Revad]

1 hour ago, Angels 1961 said:

They are 3.5 out of W/C with 4 teams in front of them. If they are 6 or more back at trade deadline, I hope Ohtani is traded among others.

Yankees are in the 3rd wildcard spot and their record is 32-23.  Two teams, Boston and Seattle, are between us and the Yankees andToronto is right on our heels.  It’s still doable to make the playoffs but certainly the Angels cannot afford to lose games they should win.  If they are six games out at the deadline then I agree they should sell.  Even if he holds on to Ohtani in the name of this year’s fan experience, Artie could trade Renfroe, Urshela, Webb, Devinski and Loup (if he improves).  Add in Ohtani and it’s an opportunity to change the future significantly.

[Duren, Duren]

If they don't even get in the playoffs with an extra wild card spot, then it isn't a good season. Finishing around .500 is average, semi respectable, but not 'good.' 

I doubt many remember the pre 1969 setup. Ten teams in each league, with only one pennant winner in each. No divisions, first place teams straight to the World Series. Now that made for dreadfully boring fan interest for usually six or more teams in each league from June on usually. And you had many really good teams miss out when today they would be in the playoffs with realistic chances to win it all. 

Don't forget this is supposed to be a special year. Intended to give Ohtani a chance to be in the playoffs and help convince him to stay. Despite a number of positive moves, the end result so far hasn't elevated the team enough. This homestand really was deflating in the end  because it could have produced real momentum. All three of the Miami losses were close, winnable games. But various isolated mistakes and failures ended up costing the team. You have to consistently win close games to make progress. 

Without the Ohtani factor, a .500 season might seem a modest step forward over the previous half dozen years. But still not a good season without making the playoffs. 

[Stradling]

6 hours ago, AngelFanInTheATL said:

88 wins in 1985 was a good team. And in 1995.  Probably even in 2005.

With so many teams tanking now, if you win 88 games, you have to look at the opponents to provide context to the season.  If the Angels get 10 wins against Oakland and let's say 4 against KC, then 14 out of the 88 wins (16 percent) would be against teams not trying to be competitive. 

I think the sign of a good team in 2023 is whether or not you make the playoffs, and how you do once you get there, especially with so many teams eligible.  And yes, I realize the AL Central winner may get in with 84 wins, but nobody is going to consider that team a contender.

So we won't really know if they are a good team until the season ends.

So 86 wins in 2022 is a good team, but 88 wins a year later isn’t a good team.  

[gurn67]

I'm starting to get to the point that if this is another 72-80 win team, they might as well just blow the whole thing up and start over. Even if they manage to somehow win 85 games and lose Ohtani for nothing, what's the point of spending like they do when I think every small market club has made the post-season since 2015? Obviously, the organizational plan has been a complete failure. It doesn't matter who the GM has been. Who the Manager/coaches have been. Who the cast of characters around Trout has been. It doesn't work. Most of us thought that our prayers had finally been answered this off-season, but we didn't even get the change in ownership. Letting Ohtani go for nothing other than a compensation pick would be the worst decision in the history of the organization. Signing him for $50 million a year may be just as bad. That would basically just continue this unworkable path they've been on for 9 seasons now, but with even less resources to build a complete team. Ohtani's trade should be the start of a full rebuild. Ask Trout if he's willing to play through a rebuilding phase. If not, give him the respect he's earned, and trade him  to a place he'd like to go. 

[Stradling]

I’ll self ban for 3 months if Ohtani gets $50 million a year for more than 5 years.  He’s going to get close to $500 million but for about 12-14 years, like most high dollar deals this past off season.  I would not be at all surprised if he gets $500 over 14 years which is about $36 million a year. 

[Docwaukee]

2 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Isn’t that exactly what’s happened?
 

It seems like everyone is at or well below expectations, and they’re 2 games over .500. 

SP
Above - none
At - Canning
Below - Detmers, Anderson, Sandoval, Ohtani (a bit)
Crapped the bed - Suarez

BP 
Above - Estevez, Moore, Devenski, Barria (now a starter)
At - Wantz
Below - Davidson, Herget
Crapped the bed - Tepera, Loup, Moronta
TBD - Silseth, Webb, Weiss, Bachman
Injured - Warren, Quijada

Lineup
Above - Neto, Moniak, Wallach, Thaiss (entire group is smaller sample) 
At - Drury, Renfroe, Urshela, Rendon (expected him to play well when not injured but injured a lot)
Slightly below - Trout, Ohtani
Below - Rengifo
Crapped the bed - Ward
TBD - Walsh 
Gone or Injured - Phillips, Fletcher, O'Hoppe, Lamb

[Angels 1961]

You want winning culture watch women's college softball. Utah pitcher over 320 pitches to help put Utah in WS in OKC. These girls play for fun of game and show so much determination to win. Girls all play as a unit and have so much fun playing. Once a player signs his one big contract in MLB I feel the drive and incentive goes away. Give me the young hungry players looking for the big payday.

[BTH]

@Jeff Fletcher

One question I have since you’ve been in/around clubhouses and teams, albeit without full access, do you think clubhouse chemistry, leadership, etc. actually matters?

Perry obviously thinks it does.

And a question for him would be if he thinks that the chemistry/leadership has been good? Obviously he thought it would be with the additions he made and touted, but what’s his assessment 2 months in?

[HeavenlyHalos]

4 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Isn’t that exactly what’s happened?
 

It seems like everyone is at or well below expectations, and they’re 2 games over .500. 

Yes, which is why I still have some optimism for them moving forward. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 hours ago, gurn67 said:

I'm starting to get to the point that if this is another 72-80 win team, they might as well just blow the whole thing up and start over. Even if they manage to somehow win 85 games and lose Ohtani for nothing, what's the point of spending like they do when I think every small market club has made the post-season since 2015? Obviously, the organizational plan has been a complete failure. It doesn't matter who the GM has been. Who the Manager/coaches have been. Who the cast of characters around Trout has been. It doesn't work. Most of us thought that our prayers had finally been answered this off-season, but we didn't even get the change in ownership. Letting Ohtani go for nothing other than a compensation pick would be the worst decision in the history of the organization. Signing him for $50 million a year may be just as bad. That would basically just continue this unworkable path they've been on for 9 seasons now, but with even less resources to build a complete team. Ohtani's trade should be the start of a full rebuild. Ask Trout if he's willing to play through a rebuilding phase. If not, give him the respect he's earned, and trade him  to a place he'd like to go. 

You’re a few years late with this take but, nice to have you on board.

[Jeff Fletcher]

2 hours ago, Trendon said:

@Jeff Fletcher

One question I have since you’ve been in/around clubhouses and teams, albeit without full access, do you think clubhouse chemistry, leadership, etc. actually matters?

Perry obviously thinks it does.

And a question for him would be if he thinks that the chemistry/leadership has been good? Obviously he thought it would be with the additions he made and touted, but what’s his assessment 2 months in?

I think that people who have been in clubhouses universally say it matters, so I'm not going to tell them they're wrong.

But I think the way it matters is that the players hold each other accountable, set an example for each other and help make each other better. I think that's more important than whether they like each other.

I know from conversations with him that he thinks there are some good elements but it will be even better when O'Hoppe and Neto get a little more time.

[Jeff Fletcher]

4 hours ago, Stradling said:

I’ll self ban for 3 months if Ohtani gets $50 million a year for more than 5 years.  He’s going to get close to $500 million but for about 12-14 years, like most high dollar deals this past off season.  I would not be at all surprised if he gets $500 over 14 years which is about $36 million a year. 

A 14-year deal would really test MLB's leniency on what they'd allow in terms of circumventing the CBT. I think some of the deals last winter (like Bogaerts) really pushed the envelope and will have MLB on the watch going forward.

[REDneck]

7 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

I think that people who have been in clubhouses universally say it matters, so I'm not going to tell them they're wrong.

But I think the way it matters is that the players hold each other accountable, set an example for each other and help make each other better. I think that's more important than whether they like each other.

I know from conversations with him that he thinks there are some good elements but it will be even better when O'Hoppe and Neto get a little more time.

Accountability?

 

 

Thank you Jeff!

[AngelsLakersFan]

2 minutes ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

A 14-year deal would really test MLB's leniency on what they'd allow in terms of circumventing the CBT. I think some of the deals last winter (like Bogaerts) really pushed the envelope and will have MLB on the watch going forward.

Given how low the cbt threshold is it’s only rational for teams to start spreading deals out. In many ways all multi year deals are a way for teams to spread single year costs across multiple seasons.

[HaloBronco]

8 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Isn’t that exactly what’s happened?
 

It seems like everyone is at or well below expectations, and they’re 2 games over .500. 

Great point Jeff, if most of the guys (playing below expectations) play to the level they normally have done in the past to go along with some surprising performances by players like Neto, Canning, Estévez, Thaiss and Urshela this team could get on a roll.