State of the Organization

[Blarg]

4 hours ago, wopphil said:

Maybe Adell will be average.

Right now if we had "average" at 3rd, SS, 2nd and Left Field this team would be kicking ass. 

[OhtaniSan]

They should just hire me. In OOTP i win the WS with the Angels every year

[Blarg]

1 hour ago, Docwaukee said:

and BTW, AW is the commune of crazies on the side of the hill in stupid town.  

I live in the town that Bill & Ted made famous so obviously I fit right in as an Angels fan. 

[tdawg87]

5 minutes ago, Blarg said:

I live in the town that Bill & Ted made famous so obviously I fit right in as an Angels fan. 

San Dimas High School football rules!

[ScottM]

The organization has been a fucking mess for a over a decade. The only thing that will turn it around is Arte selling, which likely won't happen until he dies. He is singularly the cause of so many of our continuing issues. From the coaching to the involvement in shitty signings, not paying scouts, circular firing squad of announcers, etc etc etc it's all Arte. 

[ukyah]

[Farmbuildingfan]

6 hours ago, wopphil said:

I think most agree this year is lost. I don’t mean to be a Debbie Downer, but in looking at the organization on the whole, I kind of think we are screwed for next year and beyond. Consider:

- We have not a single position player prospect in AA or AAA who looks like he will be a good major league player. Maybe Adell will be average. 
- We have a bloated major league payroll. 
- Other than Detmers, we don’t have a single starting pitching prospect who looks certain to be at least an average starter. Maybe Silseth. 
- Trout will be another year into the wrong side of 30.

- Ohtani will have only a year left before free agency. He will be fun to watch, but like Trout, his efforts will be wasted. 
- Rendon will probably find another way to get injured. 
- Other than Iglesias, we have no high leverage bullpen arms, either on the major league team or in the high minors. 

I guess I am pessimistic that this team can be fixed in the next two to three years. I am just not seeing it. The farm is still weak, at least at the upper levels. And the payroll is so high that they won’t be able to buy themselves out of this mess. 

Anyone see things differently? 

You have summed up the Angel organization going back 50 years. Probably won't change any time soon.

[Angel Oracle]

3 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

Once upon a time...

a 97 win Angels team lost in the ALCS to the Yankees in 2009.  

Actually, lets go way way back to 2003 when Arte took over.  

Or how about a little further back to the days of Bavasi and Stoneman?  

Drafting and developing became the cornerstone of this franchise.  They lived off the hard work of that for several years from previous regimes until 2009 but the infrastructure was essentially dismantled from the word go once Arte took over.  The complementary pieces around that were actually pretty functional early on.  Vlad, Hunter, Abreu.  

And then came some really poor choices couple with that loss of infrastructure.  Trying use dip spit and elmers and duct tape to hold it together.  Like Haren, Matsui, Wells.  Not all of them were horrible choices but it was a clear departure from what made them successful for those previous years.  

But then the real pain came.  Mike Trout.  HAHA!  Yeah.  Whoa!  Seriously?  

Yep.  They really started to get in wrong when they went down the rabbit's hole of realizing he was a generational player and the obligation they felt, they have felt, to make use of that.  In no way, shape or form is that Mike's fault.  They just did a miserable job of identifying how to do what need to be done in order to take advantage of him.  

by the time he showed up they had already started to completely ignore the things that worked for them in the past.  And then they doubled down on that.  But the funny thing is they didn't have to do that.  Albert?  Ok.  Pair him with another generational player.  Terrible contract.  But where did the farm go?  Oh yeah.  No latin america.  Low ceiling college players who 'theoretically' would be quick to he bigs and help.  

I have to wonder where we'd be right now if they had still paid appropriate attention to the drafting and developing back in 2013.  

All the while the leadership structure is probably the most unconventional of any team in baseball.  Gm gets let go.  New GM didn't hire manager.  Another new GM who didn't hire the manager.  GM quits mid year.  Another new GM who didn't hire the manager.  Manager finally leaves.  GM hires new manager who lasts one year.  Owner hires a new manager.  GM is let go.  New GM inherits manager.  Manager is let go.  That seems like it would work.  Right?  Over an 8 year span?  4 managers and 3 gms.  Only one manager of which was chosen by the gm.  For one year.  Seems stable to me.  

So who's to blame?  Is it Arte?  Carpino?  Someone else?  It's like four or five layers of doubling down on bad decisions.  When are they gonna break the chain?  

You know my answer.   No need for me to repeat it.    Until he sells the team, it’s rinse repeat.   A leopard doesn’t change his spots after two decades.

Too much love for star power and none for the nuts and bolts

The only good thing now is Minasian having brought in Tamin and Watson.   At least now, it’s not only the GM in the front office who is a baseball guy. 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Angel Oracle

[greginpsca]

4 hours ago, beatlesrule said:

 

Jokes are suppose to be funny.

[full circle]

3 hours ago, Docwaukee said:

Once upon a time...

a 97 win Angels team lost in the ALCS to the Yankees in 2009.  

Actually, lets go way way back to 2003 when Arte took over.  

Or how about a little further back to the days of Bavasi and Stoneman?  

Drafting and developing became the cornerstone of this franchise.  They lived off the hard work of that for several years from previous regimes until 2009 but the infrastructure was essentially dismantled from the word go once Arte took over.  The complementary pieces around that were actually pretty functional early on.  Vlad, Hunter, Abreu.  

And then came some really poor choices couple with that loss of infrastructure.  Trying use dip spit and elmers and duct tape to hold it together.  Like Haren, Matsui, Wells.  Not all of them were horrible choices but it was a clear departure from what made them successful for those previous years.  

But then the real pain came.  Mike Trout.  HAHA!  Yeah.  Whoa!  Seriously?  

Yep.  They really started to get in wrong when they went down the rabbit's hole of realizing he was a generational player and the obligation they felt, they have felt, to make use of that.  In no way, shape or form is that Mike's fault.  They just did a miserable job of identifying how to do what need to be done in order to take advantage of him.  

by the time he showed up they had already started to completely ignore the things that worked for them in the past.  And then they doubled down on that.  But the funny thing is they didn't have to do that.  Albert?  Ok.  Pair him with another generational player.  Terrible contract.  But where did the farm go?  Oh yeah.  No latin america.  Low ceiling college players who 'theoretically' would be quick to he bigs and help.  

I have to wonder where we'd be right now if they had still paid appropriate attention to the drafting and developing back in 2013.  

All the while the leadership structure is probably the most unconventional of any team in baseball.  Gm gets let go.  New GM didn't hire manager.  Another new GM who didn't hire the manager.  GM quits mid year.  Another new GM who didn't hire the manager.  Manager finally leaves.  GM hires new manager who lasts one year.  Owner hires a new manager.  GM is let go.  New GM inherits manager.  Manager is let go.  That seems like it would work.  Right?  Over an 8 year span?  4 managers and 3 gms.  Only one manager of which was chosen by the gm.  For one year.  Seems stable to me.  

So who's to blame?  Is it Arte?  Carpino?  Someone else?  It's like four or five layers of doubling down on bad decisions.  When are they gonna break the chain?  

It’s just like our dumbass government. Wanna blame everyone else, and don’t realize they themselves are the problem.  Angels needed a guy like Andrew Friedman or Theo to come in and oversee the entire baseball operations dept and have total decision making authority within a set payroll.  Arte and whoever his henchman are are totally incompetent, bottom line.  

[wopphil]

And as we continue to watch the wheels come off, and the team run differential finally cross into negative territory, it’s clear there is nothing that will allow them to reverse course by next season. No amount of trades or free agent money will make this current core of players 90+ game winners by 2023. 

[Dtwncbad]

3 hours ago, Blarg said:

Right now if we had "average" at 3rd, SS, 2nd and Left Field this team would be kicking ass. 

Yeah I think the overall plan was to be adequate/passable at some of these other positions but some of these guys blow.

[m0nkey]

Bums

[Dtwncbad]

20 minutes ago, wopphil said:

And as we continue to watch the wheels come off, and the team run differential finally cross into negative territory, it’s clear there is nothing that will allow them to reverse course by next season. No amount of trades or free agent money will make this current core of players 90+ game winners by 2023. 

I don’t agree with this.  The path to being legit is Moreno paying up for probably two impact players.  One stud starter and one premium position player.

Then the team can compete even if there are some imperfections at some other positions.

Yes the money will be stupid.  But you know what else is stupid?  Sucking every year for a decade.

Edited July 2, 2022 by Dtwncbad

[Docwaukee]

They literally need to pull a Constanza and do the complete opposite of what their instincts tell them.  Pretty much everything they've tried to do as an org over the last 13 years has essentially failed when it comes to winning games.  The lone aberration coming in 2014 and even then they wen three and out in the playoffs.  

Maybe they should just say F the farm system and go all in for the next 2-3 years.  

 

[Angels 1961]

54 minutes ago, wopphil said:

And as we continue to watch the wheels come off, and the team run differential finally cross into negative territory, it’s clear there is nothing that will allow them to reverse course by next season. No amount of trades or free agent money will make this current core of players 90+ game winners by 2023. 

Rebuild tear it all down start over. Astros did it look at them now. 

[Angels 1961]

4 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

They literally need to pull a Constanza and do the complete opposite of what their instincts tell them.  Pretty much everything they've tried to do as an org over the last 13 years has essentially failed when it comes to winning games.  The lone aberration coming in 2014 and even then they wen three and out in the playoffs.  

Maybe they should just say F the farm system and go all in for the next 2-3 years.  

 

Do what? Sign who trade what? Farm is barren. Sell all assets start over only way to go. The well is dry on the farm. 

[eligrba]

9 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

Rebuild tear it all down start over. Astros did it look at them now. 

The Astros had smart selections when they drafted. The Angels could get the first 5 draft picks and still manage to fuck it up. 

[Angelsjunky]

8 hours ago, wopphil said:

- We have not a single position player prospect in AA or AAA who looks like he will be a good major league player. Maybe Adell will be average. 
- We have a bloated major league payroll. 
- Other than Detmers, we don’t have a single starting pitching prospect who looks certain to be at least an average starter. Maybe Silseth. 
- Trout will be another year into the wrong side of 30.

- Ohtani will have only a year left before free agency. He will be fun to watch, but like Trout, his efforts will be wasted. 
- Rendon will probably find another way to get injured. 
- Other than Iglesias, we have no high leverage bullpen arms, either on the major league team or in the high minors. 

I guess I am pessimistic that this team can be fixed in the next two to three years. I am just not seeing it. The farm is still weak, at least at the upper levels. And the payroll is so high that they won’t be able to buy themselves out of this mess. 

Anyone see things differently? 

Sure.

1. In AA and AAA, I'd say Jeremiah Jackson, Jo Adell, and Michael Stefanic could be solid or better major league regulars. No guarantees, but all three have a good chance. Jordyn Adams just got promoted to AA and is more sketchy, but it is possible.
2. Yes.
3. Certainty is impossible with prospects. But pitching prospects with a reasonable chance of being either a solid starter or good reliever?  In AA and above alone: Silseth, Bush, Bachman, Erla, Crow, Murphy (RP), maybe Daniel, Seminaris, Torres (RP), Ingram (RP).
4. Yep, and we might've seen the best of him. His batting numbers are still prime level, but his lack of SB and playing time means we might never see a 9 WAR season again. But 7-8 WAR, certainly. Meaning, we might be entering the phase in which Trout is no longer the best in the game, but one of the best.
5. Yes, but as someone said, the Angels still have another season to convince him to stay. Until the fat lady sings...
6. Yes, probably. His contract is looking like the new albatross. Not Albert or Hamiton level, but probably somewhere around Upton or hopefully a bit better.
7. Yes, true. But the good news is that with the wealth of minor league starters having good years (see 3), and then add Chris Rodriguez and maybe Robinson Pina to the mix, and the Angels have a lot of excess depth to draw from for the bullpen.

I think 2022 is over, but there are reasons to be--if not optimistic--at least somewhat hopeful that they can improve next year.

[Angels 1961]

4 hours ago, eligrba said:

The Astros had smart selections when they drafted. The Angels could get the first 5 draft picks and still manage to fuck it up. 

You right started back in December 1960

[Tank]

Now you younger guys know what it was like to be a fan during the 70s, when all we really had to look forward to was watching Nolan Ryan.

Things finally started changing when they signed Grich, Baylor, and Rudi, then traded for Carew. 

[Angel Oracle]

52 minutes ago, Tank said:

Now you younger guys know what it was like to be a fan during the 70s, when all we really had to look forward to was watching Nolan Ryan.

Things finally started changing when they signed Grich, Baylor, and Rudi, then traded for Carew. 

Ryan and Tanana in 1975-1976 was all there was.

[Angel Oracle]

Adell is hitting .300 in his past 50 at bats, with a .747 OPS.

That plus Marsh’s .480 OPS in past 95 PAs = call up Adell to platoon in LF vs lefties?

This pathetic offense show in the bottom half of the order has gone on for plenty long enough.

[CaliAngel]

1 hour ago, Angel Oracle said:

Adell is hitting .300 in his past 50 at bats, with a .747 OPS.

That plus Marsh’s .480 OPS in past 95 PAs = call up Adell to platoon in LF vs lefties?

This pathetic offense show in the bottom half of the order has gone on for plenty long enough.

Adell should be traded and never show up in an Angel uniform again. 

[Blarg]

12 minutes ago, CaliAngel said:

Adell should be traded and never show up in an Angel uniform again. 

What do you base this on? Before you answer that, Adell is 23. Tim Salmon didn't play his full rookie season until he was 24.

So, go ahead and explain.