State of the Organization

[wopphil]

I think most agree this year is lost. I don’t mean to be a Debbie Downer, but in looking at the organization on the whole, I kind of think we are screwed for next year and beyond. Consider:

- We have not a single position player prospect in AA or AAA who looks like he will be a good major league player. Maybe Adell will be average. 
- We have a bloated major league payroll. 
- Other than Detmers, we don’t have a single starting pitching prospect who looks certain to be at least an average starter. Maybe Silseth. 
- Trout will be another year into the wrong side of 30.

- Ohtani will have only a year left before free agency. He will be fun to watch, but like Trout, his efforts will be wasted. 
- Rendon will probably find another way to get injured. 
- Other than Iglesias, we have no high leverage bullpen arms, either on the major league team or in the high minors. 

I guess I am pessimistic that this team can be fixed in the next two to three years. I am just not seeing it. The farm is still weak, at least at the upper levels. And the payroll is so high that they won’t be able to buy themselves out of this mess. 

Anyone see things differently? 

[T.G.]

1 hour ago, wopphil said:

Anyone see things differently?

I enjoy the in-game and post game content from Erica. 

Edited July 2, 2022 by True Grich

[notherhalo]

IF Rendon somehow manages to stay healthy AND starts aging backwards

IF many of the draft picks we got somehow defy the odds and become really good

IF Ward maintains his really hot 6 week '22 sample size for the remainder of his career

IF we just sign a good catcher, SS, 3 SPs, and some BP arms and stay within payroll

IF Adell does what he has never done in the ML and play well

and Trout stops getting routinely hurt

I think our chances are pretty good to compete with anyone besides the Astros in our division 

[Angels 1961]

58 minutes ago, wopphil said:

I think most agree this year is lost. I don’t mean to be a Debbie Downer, but in looking at the organization on the whole, I kind of think we are screwed for next year and beyond. Consider:

- We have not a single position player prospect in AA or AAA who looks like he will be a good major league player. Maybe Adell will be average. 
- We have a bloated major league payroll. 
- Other than Detmers, we don’t have a single starting pitching prospect who looks certain to be at least an average starter. Maybe Silseth. 
- Trout will be another year into the wrong side of 30.

- Ohtani will have only a year left before free agency. He will be fun to watch, but like Trout, his efforts will be wasted. 
- Rendon will probably find another way to get injured. 
- Other than Iglesias, we have no high leverage bullpen arms, either on the major league team or in the high minors. 

I guess I am pessimistic that this team can be fixed in the next two to three years. I am just not seeing it. The farm is still weak, at least at the upper levels. And the payroll is so high that they won’t be able to buy themselves out of this mess. 

Anyone see things differently? 

I think you are giving an honest assessment of this team. Will be 7 losing seasons and it is very frustrating as a halo fan.

[full circle]

Everything traces back to not drafting and developing talent well.  Until that improves, we’re running in place. 

[Angels 1961]

40 minutes ago, full circle said:

Everything traces back to not drafting and developing talent well.  Until that improves, we’re running in place. 

If Angels want to be a big wheel they need to run in circles

[greginpsca]

Poor scouting, poor player development, and a lack of payroll flexibility says it all.  And no sign of it improving.  Payroll wise, the scale is way too top heavy now as in the past decade. First, we had Trout, Pujols, and Hamilton taking up too much of the flexibility. Then it was Trout , Pujols and Upton. Still couldn't win. Then it is Trout Upton and Rendon. Still terrible.  Now it is going to become Trout Rendon and Ohtani. Same results. Notice a pattern? Without enough $ to fill out the holes in the roster each season and stay in budget.  The team fills holes with cheap bandages that have a tendency to keep falling off. Gotta stay in budget! This team is spinning its wheels, as there has been no improvement in the standings in years. All we hear is the Motto, " We are fully committed to winning".  I am saying BS. Every year, same plan, same bad results! 

[beatlesrule]

2 hours ago, wopphil said:

I think most agree this year is lost. I don’t mean to be a Debbie Downer, but in looking at the organization on the whole, I kind of think we are screwed for next year and beyond. Consider:

- We have not a single position player prospect in AA or AAA who looks like he will be a good major league player. Maybe Adell will be average. 
- We have a bloated major league payroll. 
- Other than Detmers, we don’t have a single starting pitching prospect who looks certain to be at least an average starter. Maybe Silseth. 
- Trout will be another year into the wrong side of 30.

- Ohtani will have only a year left before free agency. He will be fun to watch, but like Trout, his efforts will be wasted. 
- Rendon will probably find another way to get injured. 
- Other than Iglesias, we have no high leverage bullpen arms, either on the major league team or in the high minors. 

I guess I am pessimistic that this team can be fixed in the next two to three years. I am just not seeing it. The farm is still weak, at least at the upper levels. And the payroll is so high that they won’t be able to buy themselves out of this mess. 

Anyone see things differently? 

 

1 minute ago, greginpsca said:

Poor scouting, poor player development, and a lack of payroll flexibility says it all.  And no sign of it improving.  Payroll wise, the scale is way too top heavy now as in the past decade. First, we had Trout, Pujols, and Hamilton taking up too much of the flexibility. Then it was Trout , Pujols and Upton. Still couldn't win. Then it is Trout Upton and Rendon. Still terrible.  Now it is going to become Trout Rendon and Ohtani. Same results. Notice a pattern? Without enough $ to fill out the holes in the roster each season and stay in budget.  The team fills holes with cheap bandages that have a tendency to keep falling off. Gotta stay in budget! This team is spinning its wheels, as there has been no improvement in the standings in years. All we hear is the Motto, " We are fully committed to winning".  I am saying BS. Every year, same plan, same bad results! 

I have some good news. The Angels just signed Jonathan Villar! Help is on the way!!!

[greginpsca]

1 minute ago, beatlesrule said:

 

I have some good news. The Angels just signed Jonathan Villar! Help is on the way!!!

Another cheap bandage.

[fan_since79]

5 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

 

I have some good news. The Angels just signed Jonathan Villar! Help is on the way!!!

And he's bringing his .598 OPS and minus 0.7 WAR with him. Yay!

He was good back in 2016.

[beatlesrule]

9 minutes ago, greginpsca said:

Another cheap bandage.

 

3 minutes ago, fan_since79 said:

And he's bringing his .598 OPS and minus 0.7 WAR with him. Yay!

He was good back in 2016.

[LAA Road Tripper]

The problem with this underachieving franchise isn’t about money. Never has been. It’s about priorities. In anything, when the foundation isn’t right, the whole enterprise is at risk. Since Arte bought the team, scouting, drafting, player development, all of the things consistently successful franchises do aren’t done here. That’s the story. Until they do, we’ll keep seeing the same results.

Let’s make it simple. You want to be successful? Look at the teams that are, look really closely, and copy that. Notice what they don’t do and don’t do it, too. That’s how the Angels get on the right track. 

[tdawg87]

[AngelsLakersFan]

Ultimately they have one more year to put it together.

If some of the young pitchers, plus Marsh, Adell and Ward can fully establish themselves over the next 14 months or so they can push more cash in, re-sign Ohtani and add some better complimentary pieces for '24.

If that doesn't happen, or only partially happens then they should seriously start to consider a rebuild.

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, wopphil said:

I think most agree this year is lost. I don’t mean to be a Debbie Downer, but in looking at the organization on the whole, I kind of think we are screwed for next year and beyond. Consider:

- We have not a single position player prospect in AA or AAA who looks like he will be a good major league player. Maybe Adell will be average. 
- We have a bloated major league payroll. 
- Other than Detmers, we don’t have a single starting pitching prospect who looks certain to be at least an average starter. Maybe Silseth. 
- Trout will be another year into the wrong side of 30.

- Ohtani will have only a year left before free agency. He will be fun to watch, but like Trout, his efforts will be wasted. 
- Rendon will probably find another way to get injured. 
- Other than Iglesias, we have no high leverage bullpen arms, either on the major league team or in the high minors. 

I guess I am pessimistic that this team can be fixed in the next two to three years. I am just not seeing it. The farm is still weak, at least at the upper levels. And the payroll is so high that they won’t be able to buy themselves out of this mess. 

Anyone see things differently? 

Once upon a time...

a 97 win Angels team lost in the ALCS to the Yankees in 2009.  

Actually, lets go way way back to 2003 when Arte took over.  

Or how about a little further back to the days of Bavasi and Stoneman?  

Drafting and developing became the cornerstone of this franchise.  They lived off the hard work of that for several years from previous regimes until 2009 but the infrastructure was essentially dismantled from the word go once Arte took over.  The complementary pieces around that were actually pretty functional early on.  Vlad, Hunter, Abreu.  

And then came some really poor choices couple with that loss of infrastructure.  Trying use dip spit and elmers and duct tape to hold it together.  Like Haren, Matsui, Wells.  Not all of them were horrible choices but it was a clear departure from what made them successful for those previous years.  

But then the real pain came.  Mike Trout.  HAHA!  Yeah.  Whoa!  Seriously?  

Yep.  They really started to get in wrong when they went down the rabbit's hole of realizing he was a generational player and the obligation they felt, they have felt, to make use of that.  In no way, shape or form is that Mike's fault.  They just did a miserable job of identifying how to do what need to be done in order to take advantage of him.  

by the time he showed up they had already started to completely ignore the things that worked for them in the past.  And then they doubled down on that.  But the funny thing is they didn't have to do that.  Albert?  Ok.  Pair him with another generational player.  Terrible contract.  But where did the farm go?  Oh yeah.  No latin america.  Low ceiling college players who 'theoretically' would be quick to he bigs and help.  

I have to wonder where we'd be right now if they had still paid appropriate attention to the drafting and developing back in 2013.  

All the while the leadership structure is probably the most unconventional of any team in baseball.  Gm gets let go.  New GM didn't hire manager.  Another new GM who didn't hire the manager.  GM quits mid year.  Another new GM who didn't hire the manager.  Manager finally leaves.  GM hires new manager who lasts one year.  Owner hires a new manager.  GM is let go.  New GM inherits manager.  Manager is let go.  That seems like it would work.  Right?  Over an 8 year span?  4 managers and 3 gms.  Only one manager of which was chosen by the gm.  For one year.  Seems stable to me.  

So who's to blame?  Is it Arte?  Carpino?  Someone else?  It's like four or five layers of doubling down on bad decisions.  When are they gonna break the chain?  

[AngelsLakersFan]

5 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

But then the real pain came.  Mike Trout.  HAHA!  Yeah.  Whoa!  Seriously?  

Yep.  They really started to get in wrong when they went down the rabbit's hole of realizing he was a generational player and the obligation they felt, they have felt, to make use of that.  In no way, shape or form is that Mike's fault.  They just did a miserable job of identifying how to do what need to be done in order to take advantage of him.  

by the time he showed up they had already started to completely ignore the things that worked for them in the past.  And then they doubled down on that.  But the funny thing is they didn't have to do that.  Albert?  Ok.  Pair him with another generational player.  Terrible contract.  But where did the farm go?  Oh yeah.  No latin america.  Low ceiling college players who 'theoretically' would be quick to he bigs and help.  

I don't really agree with the Trout blame. I mean they had already decided to double down and sign Pujols and Wilson before Trout established himself. They already were going to keep pushing chips in even if Trout only turned out to be a quality regular.

[UndertheHalo]

Bad

[Duren, Duren]

Things usually go in cycles. A build up to contention, peak, decline. The decline can bottom out or be restricted to a 'retool' rather than a 'rebuild.' If management is shrewd with smart trades/signings and/or a good farm system. 

The Angels really haven't followed this cyclical process since Trout's early years. Neither have they peaked into a contender nor bottomed out as one of the very worst teams. Trades and signings haven't moved the needle. The farm system hasn't produced enough high end talent. 

And the budget restricts their options. There have been managerial and front office changes, but the overall results still remain the same. 

Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. This includes high profile expensive contracts at the expense of better depth. And maybe the wrong type of high end players. Hamilton, Pujols, Upton, Rendon, Trout. All high slugging percentage types. 

If the budget was spread over different kinds of players maybe the results would be different. Pitching and higher on base/speed players for instance. And better all around players at key positions like catcher and shortstop. 

The farm system fail goes back to scouting and development. Which haven't improved under different regimes. And everything ultimately reverts to ownership and the directives coming from on top. 

Maybe the only way to radically get out of this loop is to trade Ohtani for a king's ransom. You see these mega trades of superstars in basketball all the time. One player for a bunch of high picks plus a group of decent players. Even though Ohtani is a once in a lifetime player, the team hasn't even played above  .500 during his career. Or, even less likely, Trout. 

As well, we really don't know what goes on behind the scenes in terms of the desire of the players and their agents. Especially with Ohtani. What if a trade is instigated at that end? 

It would be highly unpopular and open the team up to derision. Not to mention loss of income. But it would signal a new direction. Sometimes you have to hit rock bottom before the winning cycle can begin. Providing the will is there and the right people are in charge. 

[Docwaukee]

5 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I don't really agree with the Trout blame. I mean they had already decided to double down and sign Pujols and Wilson before Trout established himself. They already were going to keep pushing chips in even if Trout only turned out to be a quality regular.

I'm not blaming Trout.  Just that they were already on a path to stupid and then they paved that path and added stoplights and built a hotel and a gas station and a convenience store and then Arte became the mayor of stupid town.  And Tony and Jerry were his deputies.   Tony got offed by Jerry and then Jerry left.   Then they got the assistant mayor of Gotham to come run stupid town.    Then he suggested moving out of stupid town but rented mopeds in order to transport everyone out which obviously didn't work so then Arte decided to to hire farmer Joe who grew weed in his back yard.  But he thought adding shiny ornaments to all the buildings in stupid town would make everything better.  And then one day Perry stopped for gas in stupid town in his BMW and Arte thought hey, this guy must be smart so we should hire him as the new deputy.  So then he got rid of Joe weed.  So now we all still live in stupid town with gold ornaments on every building but the entire city is built on a sink hole

[Docwaukee]

and BTW, AW is the commune of crazies on the side of the hill in stupid town.  

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

I'm not blaming Trout.  Just that they were already on a path to stupid and then they paved that path and added stoplights and built a hotel and a gas station and a convenience store and then Arte became the mayor of stupid town.  And Tony and Jerry were his deputies.   Tony got offed by Jerry and then Jerry left.   Then they got the assistant mayor of Gotham to come run stupid town.    Then he suggested moving out of stupid town but rented mopeds in order to transport everyone out which obviously didn't work so then Arte decided to to hire farmer Joe who grew weed in his back yard.  But he thought adding shiny ornaments to all the buildings in stupid town would make everything better.  And then one day Perry stopped for gas in stupid town in his BMW and Arte thought hey, this guy must be smart so we should hire him as the new deputy.  So then he got rid of Joe weed.  So now we all still live in stupid town with gold ornaments on every building but the entire city is built on a sink hole

Yes, this is pretty much what happened, but the stupid hotel and the stupid gas station and the stupid convenience store had already been built by stupid Mayor Artie by the time Abreu got DFA'd so Trout could come up and play every day.

[Angels 1961]

1 hour ago, fan_since79 said:

And he's bringing his .598 OPS and minus 0.7 WAR with him. Yay!

He was good back in 2016.

First Lagares now Villar, what next? Jon Jay

[eligrba]

44 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

and BTW, AW is the commune of crazies on the side of the hill in stupid town.  

I'm ok with that providing I have a view.

[Angels 1961]

1 hour ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Ultimately they have one more year to put it together.

If some of the young pitchers, plus Marsh, Adell and Ward can fully establish themselves over the next 14 months or so they can push more cash in, re-sign Ohtani and add some better complimentary pieces for '24.

If that doesn't happen, or only partially happens then they should seriously start to consider a rebuild.

Everyone keeps saying re-sign Ohtani. Does he want to be here is the question. If I'm the most talented player ever to play this game, I'm testing free agent market

[Dtwncbad]

Issues. Issues.  Lots of problems with drafting and developing players.  Plus the guacamole is too salty.  It’s everything.