Bobby Abreu HOFer?

[Docwaukee]

Bill James wrote a book about what the voters were most likely to use as criteria.  Not necessarily what he felt should be the criteria.   The black/gray ink think is an absurd indicator of being HOF worthy.  

One of the main ways to accumulate points on this scale is to lead the league in RBI

[Lou]

I love it when Doc shows up.

[Blarg]

I really expected a WRC+ rebuttle. He disappointed me. 

[TempeAngel]

12 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

Bill James wrote a book about what the voters were most likely to use as criteria.  Not necessarily what he felt should be the criteria.   The black/gray ink think is an absurd indicator of being HOF worthy.  

One of the main ways to accumulate points on this scale is to lead the league in RBI

I agree to a certain extent. And he says at the very top this is a predictor of whether or not they will be elected not who is better. The one thing I like is the dependence on being the best in the league not just being above average over a period of time.

For example, Abreu was a league leader only twice in his career. Once for doubles and once for triples. That doesn't seem Hall of Fame worthy to me. 

[m0nkey]

42 minutes ago, TempeAngel said:

Well,

Kenny Lofton and Lou Brock are the only two players in the history of baseball who had 600 stolen bases and 115 triples...

Are they the only two players in history who had 599 steals and 114 triples as well?

[TempeAngel]

4 minutes ago, m0nkey said:

Are they the only two players in history who had 599 steals and 114 triples as well?

They are but if you drop to 113 triples Tim Raines joins the party.

[Docwaukee]

12 minutes ago, TempeAngel said:

For example, Abreu was a league leader only twice in his career. Once for doubles and once for triples. That doesn't seem Hall of Fame worthy to me.

twice in two arbitrary categories that don't have a super high correlation to value like the rest of the categories that are arbitrary and somewhat redundant.  For example.  You get 4 points for leading the league in BA and another 3 points for leading the league in hits.  

Abreu was consistently top ten in several categories that correlate to value while he was playing.   They just chose a bunch of categories that didn't necessarily.  Which is essentially why analytics became a thing.  

I agree with the notion that in general, both Abreu and Gwynn were of similar value to their respective teams overall.  

From a pure baseball standpoint, I think what gwynn did was more impressive.  He walked more than he k'd every year of his career except his partial first year where the delta was -2.  

I do think there is some value in being the best at something positive several times over the course of your career.  

[TempeAngel]

24 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

twice in two arbitrary categories that don't have a super high correlation to value like the rest of the categories that are arbitrary and somewhat redundant.  For example.  You get 4 points for leading the league in BA and another 3 points for leading the league in hits.  

Abreu was consistently top ten in several categories that correlate to value while he was playing.   They just chose a bunch of categories that didn't necessarily.  Which is essentially why analytics became a thing.  

I agree with the notion that in general, both Abreu and Gwynn were of similar value to their respective teams overall.  

From a pure baseball standpoint, I think what gwynn did was more impressive.  He walked more than he k'd every year of his career except his partial first year where the delta was -2.  

I do think there is some value in being the best at something positive several times over the course of your career.  

Agreed regarding the system James created here. Moving off the Abreu vs. Gwynn comparison which wasn't the original purpose of the thread, do you think Abreu should be in the hall of fame? 

I saw an interview on MLB Now this week with a writer who is newly appointed to vote for the HOF - you need to be in the BBWAA for 10 years I believe. There seems to be a trend of inclusion with the younger writers. It will be interesting to see what that looks like.

For me, Bobby Abreu is not a Hall of Famer.

[T.G.]

11 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

So you remember his 139 OPS+ with the Phillies? Awesome!

I remember him with the Astros when he was described as having a "Barry Bonds like" swing.

[T.G.]

Bobby Abreu: 60 votes, 15.4%

[Revad]

2 minutes ago, T.G. said:

Bobby Abreu: 60 votes, 15.4%

That was a good hitter who could be a coach.

[AngelsLakersFan]

35 minutes ago, T.G. said:

Bobby Abreu: 60 votes, 15.4%

Pretty good showing. 

[T.G.]

14 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Pretty good showing. 

Scott Rolen got less in his first year

[AngelsLakersFan]

4 minutes ago, T.G. said:

Scott Rolen got less in his first year

Yes, the percentages tend to go up each year with most guys.

[Tank]

On 1/24/2023 at 8:33 PM, AngelsLakersFan said:

Yes, the percentages tend to go up each year with most guys.

then john lackey has a lot to look forward to!

[Taylor]

Bump

[Stradling]

Abreu should still be in the hall of fame. If Gwynn is a first ballot then Abreu should be voted in. 

[T.G.]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

Abreu should still be in the hall of fame. If Gwynn is a first ballot then Abreu should be voted in. 

Gwynn being in the HOF is irrelevant to this discussion, IMO. Keith Hernandez has a career OBP of .384. He's not in the HOF. Tim Salmon has a career OBP of .385...

If you think Abreu should be in the HOF, great. I don't care enough to argue the point, but using Gwynn's OBP is silly, IMO

[Stradling]

24 minutes ago, T.G. said:

Gwynn being in the HOF is irrelevant to this discussion, IMO. Keith Hernandez has a career OBP of .384. He's not in the HOF. Tim Salmon has a career OBP of .385...

If you think Abreu should be in the HOF, great. I don't care enough to argue the point, but using Gwynn's OBP is silly, IMO

I was using offensive production of a first ballot HOFer who received 97% of the votes and showing how Abreu was comparable and in most cases better to make a case for Abreu. 

[T.G.]

11 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I was using offensive production of a first ballot HOFer who received 97% of the votes and showing how Abreu was comparable and in most cases better to make a case for Abreu. 

Ok 

[The Ghost of Bob Starr]

Abreu is probably worthy.  I don’t care about the HOF anymore.  It’s too hard trying to decide who is in and who is out. 
 

put them all in.  Mathis can go in the gum wing with Bazooka and Topps.