Jump to content
  • Welcome to AngelsWin.com

    AngelsWin.com - THE Internet Home for Angels fans! Unraveling Angels Baseball ... One Thread at a Time.

    Register today to join the most interactive online Angels community on the net!

    Once you're a member you'll see less advertisements. Become a Premium member and you won't see any ads! 

     

IGNORED

Bobby Abreu HOFer?


Stradling

Recommended Posts

If we're talking eyeball test, unfortunately most of us are biased by Abreu's time as an Angel, when he was well past his prime. But I remember him before, as a Phillie and Yankee, and he was a terrific hitter. He made the pitchers work for it and was just so damn professional. He didn't wow you with golfing balls like Vlad, or wasn't utterly dominant like Bonds, but he was a very difficult out, and one of the most balanced players: he hit for a very good average, had some power, speed, took walks. He was very good at every aspect of hitting, just not crazy good at any of them.

We saw some of this in his first two years as an Angels, but again, he wasn't the same guy as he was in his prime.

A fun stat: I don't have updated numbers, but I think he's got the third most 20-20 seasons (HR-SB) in baseball history with nine, after the two Bonds, both of whom had 10 such seasons. But that's based on a 2007 article, but I can't imagine anyone catching up since. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Angelsjunky said:

I think part of the reason it never caught on is that its behind a pay-wall, so it is partially Bill James own damn fault. James is still quite critical of WAR...and I think he makes some good points.

True. Or Enos Slaughter, who arguably has the greatest baseball name ever.

Cobb also lead the majors in HR one year, winning the Triple Crown, although I wonder how many of those were inside the park. When people started lofting the ball more after Ruth showed the way in 1919, Cobb never really adjusted...maybe he was too stubborn and just set in his ways. He did hit 12 HR a couple times, but i Imagine that if he had started 10 years later he would have hit 20 HR a year. Meaning, I don't think his power was purely the result of big fields and his speed. He had a bit of pop.

The guy that stands out to me from that era, that was every bit the hitter that Cobb was but had power as well, was Rogers Hornsby - also a legendary prick. But unlike Cobb, Hornsby both adjusted to the power swing and hit for absurdly high averages. He is one guy that often gets forgotten historically, but he was pretty much the Babe Ruth of the NL during the 20s, leading the league BA seven times, OBP nine times, and SLG ten times over the course of his career, mostly in the 20s. If Ruth and Williams are the clear top two hitters in baseball history, Hornsby is among a short list vying for third -- at least taking all eras as equally valid.

 

But did people stop what they were doing to watch them?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

Sorry, I don't think you can so easily write players off due to steroids, especially because we don't really know who is "guilty" and who isn't, or for what periods of time. I mean, we know some guys that are, but that doesn't mean that other guys didn't use. Furthermore, for many years, steroids were more frowned upon than actually illegal -- they weren't fully banned until 2005, after Bonds' crazy run and the best years of most of those players. And if Jose Canseco is correct, as many as 80% used..so are you going to assume that Vlad is part of the 20%?

And even if you want to invalidate players for steroid use, you can't write off their whole careers. Bonds didn't start using until after 1998, when he had already established himself as an inner circle Hall of Famer. A-Rod claims he only used in 2001-03, and he was great before and pretty great after.

I have no idea if Vlad used or not, and honestly, I don't care. The situation is just too messy to get self-righteous about, so I think all we can do is allow the era and statistics to stand for themselves, rather than play make-believe and single out who we think are the bad guys and good guys.

But as I said, he was a great player, and he had great tools. But baseball isn't only about tools, but how you actualize them. I mean, look at Jo Adell. I think the numbers I shared in my previous post speak for themselves: Vlad was a top 10 player during his prime, but not top 5, and certainly not "generational." I think of that era, I'd take peak Bonds, Griffey, A-Rod, Bagwell, and Pujols over peak Vlad, and Manny was a better hitter. Vlad and Abreu are an interesting comp, because their overall results were similar, but they went about it in very different ways. 

There seems to be some cognitive dissonance at play when someone rules out ten or so guys for steroid use then rules out another for not hitting enough homeruns or making enough all star games in the steroid era.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lou said:

I'm impressed you know who Rudy is. 

Funny thing is I didnt watch the show. My first dumb joke was "penny hardaway jersey", and I said "no, that was earlier. What was popular at that time?"

 

And survivor popped into my head like the stay pufft marshmallow man

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, AngelsFanAlways1 said:

I think Bobby Abreu was a very good player but not a HOFer.

It is interesting how similar many of his numbers are to Garret Anderson.

Anderson/Abreu. Years 17/18. BA .293/.291. HR's 287/288. Hits 2529/2470. SLG .461/.465.

But Abreu had 1000 more walks - and 600 more strikeouts - but still, his OBP/OPS and OPS+ are much higher. He was basically Garret Anderson with more patience at the plate.

Not a horrible comp, but really not the best one. Abreu also had 400 SBs to GA's 80. Plus Abreu's peak was better and longer than GA's. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 10 months later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...