Bobby Abreu HOFer?

[Vegas Halo Fan]

1 hour ago, tdawg87 said:

The point is to say Abreu isn't as far off as people would think. On the surface, mentioning Abreu in the same sentence as Gwynn is laughable. It's funny @Blargmentions having to "dig deeper" because that's exactly what it takes to show you Abreu is comparable. And I said comparable, not equal.

Part of the issue, IMO, is that people here mostly remember Abreu's time with the Angels. He was here at the very tail end of a career that started in 1996. He was with the Angels from 2009-2012, and other than his first season here, his production was markedly sliding. I wouldn't vote Albert Pujols into the HOF based solely upon his time with the Angels either, but he clearly belongs there.

I'm not sure where I stand on Abreu.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Vegas Halo Fan

[jsnpritchett]

[T.G.]

13 minutes ago, Vegas Halo Fan said:

Part of the issue, IMO, is that people here mostly remember Abreu's time with the Angels. 

Not me.

[Taylor]

I wonder if the folks who got to watch Tony Gwynn play for most of his career have a stronger opinion here. 

[happybat4]

Jeff McNeil won the NL batting title this year, but was only 15th in the MVP voting.

Shouldn't he have been higher since leading the league in batting is amazing and there's no way a player with a lower average can be better or just as good?

[tdawg87]

9 minutes ago, T.G. said:

Not me.

So you remember his 139 OPS+ with the Phillies? Awesome!

[tdawg87]

Mike Trout has won 0 batting titles. 

[Taylor]

Just now, tdawg87 said:

Mike Trout has won 0 batting titles. 

He sucks.

[Taylor]

1 minute ago, tdawg87 said:

So you remember his 139 OPS+ with the Phillies? Awesome!

Or the year he stole 40 bases. 

[tdawg87]

Just now, Taylor said:

He sucks.

No. He's just obviously not nearly as good as Gwynn.

[AngelsLakersFan]

4 hours ago, T.G. said:

Tony Gwynn lead the league in hitting SEVEN times. 

There is no way in hell the two are the same. 

8 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Abreu and Gwynn are basically the same player. The only disagreement comes from the olds who can’t get past their 1950s programming

I already covered this. Sorry TG.

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 hours ago, TempeAngel said:

BASEBALL REFERENCE - HALL OF FAME STATISTICS - BILL JAMES

 

BLACK INK

Average HOF      27

Bobby Abreu       5

Tony Gwynn        57

 

GRAY INK

Average HOF       144

Bobby Abreu        88

Tony Gwynn         155

 

I don’t think you know what the black ink / gray ink is trying to measure…

[TempeAngel]

10 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I don’t think you know what the black ink / gray ink is trying to measure…

Hall of Fame Stats

These are metrics designed by Bill James to measure how likely a player is to get into the HOF, and not necessarily how good they were. Used with similarity scores, you can get a good idea of the player's chance of getting into the Hall of Fame.

Black-Ink Test

All-Time and Active Leaders

Named so because league-leading numbers are traditionally represented with Boldfacetype. The definition for the test that is being used here was written in Bill James's The Politics of Glory, p. 65-67. The essential point is to measure how often a player led the league in a variety of "important" stats. This method penalizes more recent players, because they have 14-16 teams per league, while the older players had just 8. To get a point you must lead the league in that category.

• Batting Statistics
• Four Points for home runs, runs batted in or batting average
• Three Points for runs scored, hits or slugging percentage
• Two Points for doubles, walks or stolen bases
• One Point for games, at bats or triples

• Pitching Statistics
• Four Points for wins, earned run average or strikeouts
• Three Points for innings pitched, win-loss percentage or saves
• Two Points for complete games, lowest walks per 9 innings or lowest hits per 9 innings
• One Point for appearances, starts or shutouts

Note that Hall of Famers have a wide variety of values for the Black Ink Test, and the method is unforgiving of positional differences, but it is a neat little metric.

Gray-Ink Test

All-Time and Active Leaders

Essentially the same as the Black-Ink above, but it counts appearances in the top ten of the league. For each appearance the values are below. As with the Black Ink, this method penalizes more recent players because they have 14-16 teams per league, while the older players had just 8. To get a point you must be in the top 10 in the league in that category.

• Batting Statistics
• Four Points for home runs, runs batted in or batting average
• Three Points for runs scored, hits or slugging percentage
• Two Points for doubles, walks or stolen bases
• One Point for games, at bats or triples

• Pitching Statistics
• Four Points for wins, earned run average or strikeouts
• Three Points for innings pitched, win-loss percentage or saves
• Two Points for complete games, lowest walks per 9 innings or lowest hits per 9 innings
• One Point for appearances, starts or shutouts

[tdawg87]

[AngelsLakersFan]

4 minutes ago, TempeAngel said:

Black-Ink Test

All-Time and Active Leaders

Named so because league-leading numbers are traditionally represented with Boldfacetype. The definition for the test that is being used here was written in Bill James's The Politics of Glory, p. 65-67. The essential point is to measure how often a player led the league in a variety of "important" stats. This method penalizes more recent players, because they have 14-16 teams per league, while the older players had just 8. To get a point you must lead the league in that category.

• Batting Statistics
• Four Points for home runs, runs batted in or batting average
• Three Points for runs scored, hits or slugging percentage
• Two Points for doubles, walks or stolen bases
• One Point for games, at bats or triples

• Pitching Statistics
• Four Points for wins, earned run average or strikeouts
• Three Points for innings pitched, win-loss percentage or saves
• Two Points for complete games, lowest walks per 9 innings or lowest hits per 9 innings
• One Point for appearances, starts or shutouts

Note that Hall of Famers have a wide variety of values for the Black Ink Test, and the method is unforgiving of positional differences, but it is a neat little metric.

Gray-Ink Test

All-Time and Active Leaders

Essentially the same as the Black-Ink above, but it counts appearances in the top ten of the league. For each appearance the values are below. As with the Black Ink, this method penalizes more recent players because they have 14-16 teams per league, while the older players had just 8. To get a point you must be in the top 10 in the league in that category.

• Batting Statistics
• Four Points for home runs, runs batted in or batting average
• Three Points for runs scored, hits or slugging percentage
• Two Points for doubles, walks or stolen bases
• One Point for games, at bats or triples

• Pitching Statistics
• Four Points for wins, earned run average or strikeouts
• Three Points for innings pitched, win-loss percentage or saves
• Two Points for complete games, lowest walks per 9 innings or lowest hits per 9 innings
• One Point for appearances, starts or shutouts

8 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

Abreu and Gwynn are basically the same player. The only disagreement comes from the olds who can’t get past their 1950s programming or the legitimately developmentally disabled.

Looks like I already covered this one too.

[TempeAngel]

The premise of this thread was not Bobby Abreu versus Tony Gwynn.

The question asked was is Bobby Abreu Hall of Fame worthy?

[m0nkey]

Kenny Lofton should get consideration again before Abreu

[tdawg87]

10 minutes ago, m0nkey said:

Kenny Lofton should get consideration again before Abreu

Why?

[cals]

3 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

Why?

Do you have to ask?

[tdawg87]

2 minutes ago, cals said:

Do you have to ask?

Something about Asians?

[m0nkey]

6 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

Why?

He was a better player

[AngelsLakersFan]

3 minutes ago, m0nkey said:

He was a better player

You’re going to give someone a stroke

[m0nkey]

3 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

You’re going to give someone a stroke

Thoughts and prayers 

[TempeAngel]

17 minutes ago, m0nkey said:

Kenny Lofton should get consideration again before Abreu

Well,

Kenny Lofton and Lou Brock are the only two players in the history of baseball who had 600 stolen bases and 115 triples...

[cals]

27 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

Something about Asians?

Don’t be racist.  Cmon man.