Official 2021-22 Hot Stove League Thread.

[UndertheHalo]

22 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

John Heyman reports this morning that multiple teams are engaged in trade talks with multiple players involved.  Some included teams are the Red Sox, Yankees, Phillies, Reds, Mets, Royals, Marlins, Rays, Rangers, Astros, Giants, Dodgers, Angels, and Padres and talks are heating up on starting pitchers, middle infielders, corners, catchers and outfielders.

I love him 

[T.G.]

Jon Heyman is also reporting that water is wet and that the sun will come up tomorrow.

[Angelsfan1984]

43 minutes ago, True Grich said:

Jon Heyman is also reporting that water is wet and that the sun will come up tomorrow.

Bold predictions 

[Docwaukee]

1 hour ago, True Grich said:

Jon Heyman is also reporting that water is wet and that the sun will come up tomorrow.

[floplag]

3 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

John Heyman reports this morning that multiple teams are engaged in trade talks with multiple players involved.  Some included teams are the Red Sox, Yankees, Phillies, Reds, Mets, Royals, Marlins, Rays, Rangers, Astros, Giants, Dodgers, Angels, and Padres and talks are heating up on starting pitchers, middle infielders, corners, catchers and outfielders.

not being able to use the players names or pictures might make things a bit confusing though... lol 

[Angel Oracle]

6 hours ago, Jason said:

Honestly, I think it’s more about FAs and their willingness to play for this org

Doesn’t help to go through one pitching coach per year the past 4 years.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Angel Oracle

[Angel Oracle]

3 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

I love him 

Meh

Prefer Paul Heyman.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Angel Oracle

[ThisismineScios]

I don't think Arte gives ultimatums, but I think he gives restrictions on certain guys. For big name guys (Boras guys in particular), there is major leeway. But for guys like Gausman, Stroman, Ray, Gray, it's most likely only _____ years or no more than _____ AAV. He'll open up the checkbook for the right guy, but I think he's much more controlling than most owners when it comes to contract length/amounts for pitchers. 

The Iglesias deal for me was interesting. A reliever, a 4-year deal, and a lot of money. Doesn't exactly fit the narrative, so I don't think we can say it's any one thing in particular. 

[Dtwncbad]

4 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

John Heyman reports this morning that multiple teams are engaged in trade talks with multiple players involved.  Some included teams are the Red Sox, Yankees, Phillies, Reds, Mets, Royals, Marlins, Rays, Rangers, Astros, Giants, Dodgers, Angels, and Padres and talks are heating up on starting pitchers, middle infielders, corners, catchers and outfielders.

Update—

There is a mystery team.

[Junkballer]

5 hours ago, ThisismineScios said:

I don't think Arte gives ultimatums, but I think he gives restrictions on certain guys. For big name guys (Boras guys in particular), there is major leeway. But for guys like Gausman, Stroman, Ray, Gray, it's most likely only _____ years or no more than _____ AAV. He'll open up the checkbook for the right guy, but I think he's much more controlling than most owners when it comes to contract length/amounts for pitchers. 

The Iglesias deal for me was interesting. A reliever, a 4-year deal, and a lot of money. Doesn't exactly fit the narrative, so I don't think we can say it's any one thing in particular. 

I agree to a large extent but instead of saying "the right guy" I think it should be said "a guy that fits his old school standards".  I doubt he cares much about advanced metrics and still categorizes player as they did in the '70s.  Fireballer, soft-tossing control guy, closer.  He understands closer, hence Iglesias.  He understands hard throwers, hence the pursuit of Max and Ray.  Stroman left him with a softy because although the years were right, he didn't fit in with Arte's idea of how an "ace" should throw.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Junkballer

[Wisconsin27]

I almost "liked" Strad's post, but didn't want to be the first without an explanation:-)

We have gone through 3 (maybe four?) GM's and over 7 years of knowing we need a frontline starter.  We get the same narrative from all of them, yet haven't delivered at even a second-tier level (i.e. someone like Stroman or Ray).  Allow me to reverse the question.  How many really think all of these GM's have been comfortable with this approach?

I honestly believe it's all about the money with Arte.  We can lament and even attempt to rationalize the "splashes" Arte has been behind with (Albert, Hamilton...even Upton and Rendon) as sound baseball moves at the time.  But to me, a pattern has been established.  He's reactionary as it relates to marketability and attempts to spin it as good for the team.  I bought into that for too long.  It's about the money and revenue.

It's been clear for years to most of us what we "need" out of FA.  However, when we fail to land it, we rationalize.  We failed at the top flight pitchers the team desperately needed when we signed Rendon out of the blue (even though it wasn't our first or even second highest area of need in terms of position to address).  Look at us now.  We failed once again and folks are wondering if we are in play for a mega-deal SS knowing full well that's not what is bringing a championship.

I have no way of knowing if Arte has told his GM's to avoid multi-year (especially 3+ year) SP contacts.  I just know the preponderance of evidence suggests it's highly likely he has interfered to a degree that has put restrictions on all of the GM's under his control to have the leeway to address what they and the fans have easily identified as the greatest need.

 

 

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

5 hours ago, ThisismineScios said:

I don't think Arte gives ultimatums, but I think he gives restrictions on certain guys. For big name guys (Boras guys in particular), there is major leeway. But for guys like Gausman, Stroman, Ray, Gray, it's most likely only _____ years or no more than _____ AAV. He'll open up the checkbook for the right guy, but I think he's much more controlling than most owners when it comes to contract length/amounts for pitchers. 

The Iglesias deal for me was interesting. A reliever, a 4-year deal, and a lot of money. Doesn't exactly fit the narrative, so I don't think we can say it's any one thing in particular. 

I agree (love Lou). I think Arte greenlights money to big names, vs big talent

[Cosmo_Kramer]

14 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

John Heyman reports this morning that multiple teams are engaged in trade talks with multiple players involved.  Some included teams are the Red Sox, Yankees, Phillies, Reds, Mets, Royals, Marlins, Rays, Rangers, Astros, Giants, Dodgers, Angels, and Padres and talks are heating up on starting pitchers, middle infielders, corners, catchers and outfielders.

Relief pitching market must be dry

[Angel Oracle]

8 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I agree (love Lou). I think Arte greenlights money to big names, vs big talent

Arte the carnival barker?  Might as well own a circus?

The Iglesias signing, given all of that, is a pleasant mystery.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Angel Oracle

[Warfarin]

15 hours ago, ThisismineScios said:

I don't think Arte gives ultimatums, but I think he gives restrictions on certain guys. For big name guys (Boras guys in particular), there is major leeway. But for guys like Gausman, Stroman, Ray, Gray, it's most likely only _____ years or no more than _____ AAV. He'll open up the checkbook for the right guy, but I think he's much more controlling than most owners when it comes to contract length/amounts for pitchers. 

The Iglesias deal for me was interesting. A reliever, a 4-year deal, and a lot of money. Doesn't exactly fit the narrative, so I don't think we can say it's any one thing in particular. 

I was shocked to see it.  We don't really see relievers sign 4 year deals anymore.  In truth, I probably would have preferred that money go towards a SP, but I'm glad we have Iglesias.  While we have clamored for a top of the rotation SP for years, we have also clamored for a shutdown closer, and now we have one locked down.

[Stradling]

12 hours ago, Wisconsin27 said:

I almost "liked" Strad's post, but didn't want to be the first without an explanation:-)

We have gone through 3 (maybe four?) GM's and over 7 years of knowing we need a frontline starter.  We get the same narrative from all of them, yet haven't delivered at even a second-tier level (i.e. someone like Stroman or Ray).  Allow me to reverse the question.  How many really think all of these GM's have been comfortable with this approach?

I honestly believe it's all about the money with Arte.  We can lament and even attempt to rationalize the "splashes" Arte has been behind with (Albert, Hamilton...even Upton and Rendon) as sound baseball moves at the time.  But to me, a pattern has been established.  He's reactionary as it relates to marketability and attempts to spin it as good for the team.  I bought into that for too long.  It's about the money and revenue.

It's been clear for years to most of us what we "need" out of FA.  However, when we fail to land it, we rationalize.  We failed at the top flight pitchers the team desperately needed when we signed Rendon out of the blue (even though it wasn't our first or even second highest area of need in terms of position to address).  Look at us now.  We failed once again and folks are wondering if we are in play for a mega-deal SS knowing full well that's not what is bringing a championship.

I have no way of knowing if Arte has told his GM's to avoid multi-year (especially 3+ year) SP contacts.  I just know the preponderance of evidence suggests it's highly likely he has interfered to a degree that has put restrictions on all of the GM's under his control to have the leeway to address what they and the fans have easily identified as the greatest need.

 

 

 

I agree with a lot of this.  But I see things differently.  If you are going to spend $20+ million you do it for the sure thing and not simply one of the best free agent pitchers this class has to offer.  So Rendon was the safe pick. Especially if Wheeler wanted to be back East. The worst contract that year went to a pitcher, Strasburg who got what Rendon got. If we would have signed Keuchel that year we’d all still be clamoring for another starter and we’d feel about him like some of us feel about Fletcher.  Ryu had a 4.32 ERA this past year.  I fully understand the need was pitching but if you aren’t getting premium stuff, then don’t commit $20+ million for multiple years. 

[GoodTimesGoneBad]

Since Arte loves the big splash my question is would Correa be so bad? Obviously upgrading the pitching staff is the #1 concern but since that’s clearly not going to happen what would your lineup look like with Correa in it? Signing Correa probably means 10/350M and probably trading Detmers and Paris for pitching but if they could get Sonny Gray I think the Angels could seriously contend. 
 

2B Fletcher

DH Ohtani

CF Trout

SS Correa

3B Rendon

1B Walsh

LF Upton/Marsh/Adell

C Stassi

RF Marsh/Adell

 

 

[tdawg87]

Just now, GoodTimesGoneBad said:

Since Arte loves the big splash my question is would Correa be so bad? Obviously upgrading the pitching staff is the #1 concern but since that’s clearly not going to happen what would your lineup look like with Correa in it? Signing Correa probably means 10/350M and probably trading Detmers and Paris for pitching but if they could get Sonny Gray I think the Angels could seriously contend. 
 

2B Fletcher

DH Ohtani

CF Trout

SS Correa

3B Rendon

1B Walsh

LF Upton/Marsh/Adell

C Stassi

RF Marsh/Adell

 

 

Improving the team is improving the team.

If they went that route I'd rather they just keep the prospects and sign Rodon.

[Stradling]

I’m not trading 6 years of Detmers for Gray 

[tdawg87]

7 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I’m not trading 6 years of Detmers for Gray 

Or even Castillo, honestly.

I hope Minasian feels the same.

I'm mildly ok with trading Bachman but only for Castillo.

[GoodTimesGoneBad]

18 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

Or even Castillo, honestly.

I hope Minasian feels the same.

I'm mildly ok with trading Bachman but only for Castillo.

Castillo is an ace, on a team friendly deal, who pitches in probably the best hitters park in the NL. As much as I like Detmers, I believe the Angels make that deal in a heartbeat. 

[Warfarin]

47 minutes ago, GoodTimesGoneBad said:

Since Arte loves the big splash my question is would Correa be so bad? Obviously upgrading the pitching staff is the #1 concern but since that’s clearly not going to happen what would your lineup look like with Correa in it? Signing Correa probably means 10/350M and probably trading Detmers and Paris for pitching but if they could get Sonny Gray I think the Angels could seriously contend. 
 

2B Fletcher

DH Ohtani

CF Trout

SS Correa

3B Rendon

1B Walsh

LF Upton/Marsh/Adell

C Stassi

RF Marsh/Adell

 

 

No.  I am against signing Correa because of what it will mean down the line - when he is injured/broken down and our payroll is maxed out, we will again begrudge a long-term deal.  Opportunity cost, basically.

Look at Rendon - in the 2nd year of his contract, we already see various red flags.  Upton has been the same way for the last few years.  

I'm fine with us signing guys to several year deals, but let's please avoid another 7-10 year deal until our farm system is pumping out tons of quality MLB players.  We have too many holes to fill to commit a mega deal to Correa.

[tdawg87]

4 minutes ago, GoodTimesGoneBad said:

Castillo is an ace, on a team friendly deal, who pitches in probably the best hitters park in the NL. As much as I like Detmers, I believe the Angels make that deal in 

I would love to have Castillo but trading 6 years for 2 is...ehh. Especially when Detmers has the upside of the pitcher you are trading for.

It's a tough decision. I wouldn't do it, personally.

[ten ocho recon scout]

5 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

I would love to have Castillo but trading 6 years for 2 is...ehh. Especially when Detmers has the upside of the pitcher you are trading for.

It's a tough decision. I wouldn't do it, personally.

I have no idea what Detmers will be. And he could be a giant letdown (hes an Angel prospect, so he will be).

But this is my take, too. He has a chance to be a front end starter, the first weve had and developed in like a decade.

If the trade was straight up? I probably would. Because we need a good pitcher NOW. But him, plus others? Pass (personally).

[ten ocho recon scout]

9 minutes ago, Warfarin said:

No.  I am against signing Correa because of what it will mean down the line - when he is injured/broken down and our payroll is maxed out, we will again begrudge a long-term deal.  Opportunity cost, basically.

Look at Rendon - in the 2nd year of his contract, we already see various red flags.  Upton has been the same way for the last few years.  

I'm fine with us signing guys to several year deals, but let's please avoid another 7-10 year deal until our farm system is pumping out tons of quality MLB players.  We have too many holes to fill to commit a mega deal to Correa.

Not to mention, trout wont get better from here, and Ohtani in a perfect world signs a megadeal with us