Could Jared Walsh go back to being a two-way player?

[TheLordofOuts]

Very happy with Walsh’s development so far as an everyday player. But, if I’m not mistaken, he was a 2-way player throughout his minor league career. Could he be the solution to help correct some of the bullpen issues? 

[tdawg87]

Just now, TheLordofOuts said:

Very happy with Walsh’s development so far as an everyday player. But, if I’m not mistaken, he was a 2-way player throughout his minor league career. Could he be the solution to help correct some of the bullpen issues? 

No.

[YouthofToday]

Yikes. The pen is bad. Not THAT bad though. 

[failos]

He’s not a starter though, so it wouldn’t make much sense to have him throw an inning or two of relief and then lose his spot in the lineup.

[Angelsjunky]

tdawg said it quickly and accurately. 

On one hand, Shohei is a unicorn. He is an elite talent as both a hitter and pitcher. The closest thing we've seen to him recently was Rick Ankiel, who was a very talented pitcher--maybe comparable to Ohtani--and a solid hitter, but not nearly as good as Shohei. Ankiel blew out his arm and had to settle for being a platoon outfielder for most of his career.

Walsh is, well, not that different from every other position player. Lots of position players can be, at least in an emergency, a "two-way player." Almost all of them were through high school, and some into college. Walsh just did it for longer, and even logged a few innings in the majors (5 to be exact)\. But so have a lot of guys (Bemboom!). If Walsh wanted to focus solely on pitching, I'm not sure he'd make it in the majors. He'd be the type of guy that hangs out in AAA and gets called up to fill in when better pitchers get injured. That makes him better than guys like Bemboom, but not really a major league caliber pitcher.

[ten ocho recon scout]

33 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

tdawg said it quickly and accurately. 

On one hand, Shohei is a unicorn. He is an elite talent as both a hitter and pitcher. The closest thing we've seen to him recently was Rick Ankiel, who was a very talented pitcher--maybe comparable to Ohtani--and a solid hitter, but not nearly as good as Shohei. Ankiel blew out his arm and had to settle for being a platoon outfielder for most of his career.

Walsh is, well, not that different from every other position player. Lots of position players can be, at least in an emergency, a "two-way player." Almost all of them were through high school, and some into college. Walsh just did it for longer, and even logged a few innings in the majors (5 to be exact)\. But so have a lot of guys (Bemboom!). If Walsh wanted to focus solely on pitching, I'm not sure he'd make it in the majors. He'd be the type of guy that hangs out in AAA and gets called up to fill in when better pitchers get injured. That makes him better than guys like Bemboom, but not really a major league caliber pitcher.

I think from this point on, bemboom should always have ! at the end.

Also. Is it benboom, or bem? 

[eligrba]

Albert who?

[ten ocho recon scout]

17 minutes ago, eligrba said:

Albert who?

Albert whojols

[gotbeer]

With the Angels track record.  They will try this experiment out of desperation.  And he'll need TJ surgery a week later.

[Second Base]

List of players in baseball history that are legitimately good major league hitters and pitchers simultaneously: Shohei Ohtani and Babe Ruth. 

Simple math suggests that if a player is good at one of these, just have them stick with that. 

[happybat4]

Lorenzen was/is pretty close. I guess good, but not great.

[T.G.]

6 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

No.

Why wasn't this thread closed after this post?

[Docwaukee]

there have already been a couple of opportunities to put him out there in blow outs and they haven't.  He's not a good enough pitcher to risk him blowing out his arm and being lost for a season because there'd be no DH at bats for him.  Such a huge discrepancy between his ability as a hitter/fielder vs. that of a pitcher, it's not worth even trying it out.  

[Inside Pitch]

12 hours ago, TheLordofOuts said:

Very happy with Walsh’s development so far as an everyday player. But, if I’m not mistaken, he was a 2-way player throughout his minor league career. Could he be the solution to help correct some of the bullpen issues? 

Yes, by giving the team superior defense over the former 1B.

[Dtwncbad]

11 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

tdawg said it quickly and accurately. 

On one hand, Shohei is a unicorn. He is an elite talent as both a hitter and pitcher. The closest thing we've seen to him recently was Rick Ankiel, who was a very talented pitcher--maybe comparable to Ohtani--and a solid hitter, but not nearly as good as Shohei. Ankiel blew out his arm and had to settle for being a platoon outfielder for most of his career.

Walsh is, well, not that different from every other position player. Lots of position players can be, at least in an emergency, a "two-way player." Almost all of them were through high school, and some into college. Walsh just did it for longer, and even logged a few innings in the majors (5 to be exact)\. But so have a lot of guys (Bemboom!). If Walsh wanted to focus solely on pitching, I'm not sure he'd make it in the majors. He'd be the type of guy that hangs out in AAA and gets called up to fill in when better pitchers get injured. That makes him better than guys like Bemboom, but not really a major league caliber pitcher.

Ankiel did not blow out his arm.  He had a unique psychological problem where he suddenly could not throw a strike.

He toiled in the minors trying to conquer it.  Finally, after years, he said screw it I will just try to get back to the majors as an OF only, and he did.

Oddly his throwing accuracy as an OF was stellar.

[Second Base]

14 hours ago, happybat4 said:

Lorenzen was/is pretty close. I guess good, but not great.

Ankiel did both, just not at the same time. Kendrys Morales was very good both ways as a prep in Cuba. Mark Trumbo and Kaleb Cowart both would've been drafted and developed as two-way players today, and both likely would've failed and stuck with one or the other. 

Hunter Greene tried it a little, future was only on the mound. Casey Kelly tried it, didn't get past A Ball. Lorenzen had proven to be a capable defensive specialist in the OF and good reliever on the mound. Jared Walsh if really pressed likely would've become an ok lefty reliever along with his current prowess at the plate, but no use in trying.

Erik Rivera down in A Ball looks to be very capable on the mound with serious power at the plate, though with other shortcomings. Will Rivera shows similar promise on the mound, and some athleticism in the OF.  He could be a Lorenzen type someday. Brendan McKay was elite at both in college. As a professional, he's been elite on the mound and looks to be a power bat off the bench. But staying healthy is the biggest obstacle and he's currently rehabbing from shoulder surgery. 

But when through all these great stories, there still only remains one that could do both at a star level, a level so high that you can't miss it. Shohei. We all need to enjoy it because I doubt we'll see another one like him. Speed, power, velocity, splitter. Just incredible. 

[Angelsjunky]

16 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

I think from this point on, bemboom should always have ! at the end.

Also. Is it benboom, or bem? 

BEM. Too bad he's not a big power hitter, so we could hear annoying announcers scream BemBooms!!!

15 hours ago, Second Base said:

List of players in baseball history that are legitimately good major league hitters and pitchers simultaneously: Shohei Ohtani and Babe Ruth. 

Simple math suggests that if a player is good at one of these, just have them stick with that. 

Yes, true, although I think others have been legitimately good at both, but just not developed both. Ankiel was good (enough) at both. One can wonder how Carlos Zambrano or Mike Hampton would have developed as hitters if they had only focused on that. Zambrano hit .238/.248/.388 with 24 HR in 693 PA, Hampton .246/.294/.356 with 16 HR in 845 PA. Not good taken on their own, but very impressive considering that they were pitchers.

There are also plenty of hitters who had pitching talent that they didn't develop beyond high school or early college level.

But yeah, Ohtani stands out above the rest, at least since Ruth. I imagine that we're going to see more young players try to develop both, and almost all will fail. But a few might slip through. I mean, once a guy shows something is possible, it tends to open the door to others. So while I realize that it is unlikely that Holmes and Rivera make it to the majors as two-way players, I'm kind of hoping they keep at it.

I think the cautionary tale is Kaleb Cowart. He probably could have been a solid relief pitcher, But now he's already 29 and I'm not even sure where he is (the Yankees picked him up a couple years ago and he's still listed as a Yankee but has yet to appear in a minor league game).

[Don]

I don't think he'll ever go back to being a two way player on a regular basis, but I could see him getting a few more appearances on the mound in his career in unique blowout situations if the pen is totally depleted, or if we run out of pitchers in some stupid 16 inning game or something; but I'd guess those situations will be very few and far between. I'd put the over/under for pitching appearances for the rest of his career at like 3.5

[ten ocho recon scout]

9 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Yes, by giving the team superior defense over the former 1B.

This needs more attention. The guys like Pedro cant see that Pujols didnt have ANYTHING left to offer aside from an occasional HR

[Second Base]

1 hour ago, Angelsjunky said:

BEM. Too bad he's not a big power hitter, so we could hear annoying announcers scream BemBooms!!!

Yes, true, although I think others have been legitimately good at both, but just not developed both. Ankiel was good (enough) at both. One can wonder how Carlos Zambrano or Mike Hampton would have developed as hitters if they had only focused on that. Zambrano hit .238/.248/.388 with 24 HR in 693 PA, Hampton .246/.294/.356 with 16 HR in 845 PA. Not good taken on their own, but very impressive considering that they were pitchers.

There are also plenty of hitters who had pitching talent that they didn't develop beyond high school or early college level.

But yeah, Ohtani stands out above the rest, at least since Ruth. I imagine that we're going to see more young players try to develop both, and almost all will fail. But a few might slip through. I mean, once a guy shows something is possible, it tends to open the door to others. So while I realize that it is unlikely that Holmes and Rivera make it to the majors as two-way players, I'm kind of hoping they keep at it.

I think the cautionary tale is Kaleb Cowart. He probably could have been a solid relief pitcher, But now he's already 29 and I'm not even sure where he is (the Yankees picked him up a couple years ago and he's still listed as a Yankee but has yet to appear in a minor league game).

I think the hardest part would be developing a true two-way player. In America, there's such a gigantic leap between high school and the majors that is doubtful any prep star here could do it. 

If Trumbo and Cowart tried, I have to think both would've ended up being relief pitchers. Trumbo's in-game power didn't develop until later and if he was pitching, it may have never arrived outside of BP. And Cowart, the bat never fully developed. He would've abandoned the hitting thing before AA. 

McKay has the best route in that he successfully did it in college. If a college can keep them harness their game, it eliminates some steps along the way. Players then just need to conquer AA and AAA at that point. 

Ohtani's best option really was Japan. His pitching was ready straight out of high school, though a bit raw. But offensively, he wasn't an impact player until 21. Had her tried to develop stateside, it would've been uneven. From a pitching standpoint, he would've been ready for AA by age 19, but his bat would've lagged behind, likely only being ready for A Ball or Rookie Ball. I think at that point, he would've been forced to abandon the two way thing and we wouldn't be blessed to see it today. 

For the Angels, the only one that truly stands a chance of impacting on both sides is Rivera, and even then, the bat is still two years behind his arm developmentally. The only way I see it truly working out is if he experiences an unforeseen leap in ability with the bat, or if the Angels allow his arm to get him to the big leagues while still having him take BP every day and fine tune until that part of his game is ready too. 

[Angelsjunky]

5 minutes ago, Second Base said:

I think the hardest part would be developing a true two-way player. In America, there's such a gigantic leap between high school and the majors that is doubtful any prep star here could do it. 

If Trumbo and Cowart tried, I have to think both would've ended up being relief pitchers. Trumbo's in-game power didn't develop until later and if he was pitching, it may have never arrived outside of BP. And Cowart, the bat never fully developed. He would've abandoned the hitting thing before AA. 

McKay has the best route in that he successfully did it in college. If a college can keep them harness their game, it eliminates some steps along the way. Players then just need to conquer AA and AAA at that point. 

Ohtani's best option really was Japan. His pitching was ready straight out of high school, though a bit raw. But offensively, he wasn't an impact player until 21. Had her tried to develop stateside, it would've been uneven. From a pitching standpoint, he would've been ready for AA by age 19, but his bat would've lagged behind, likely only being ready for A Ball or Rookie Ball. I think at that point, he would've been forced to abandon the two way thing and we wouldn't be blessed to see it today. 

For the Angels, the only one that truly stands a chance of impacting on both sides is Rivera, and even then, the bat is still two years behind his arm developmentally. The only way I see it truly working out is if he experiences an unforeseen leap in ability with the bat, or if the Angels allow his arm to get him to the big leagues while still having him take BP every day and fine tune until that part of his game is ready too. 

Given Rivera's (and Holmes') age, don't you think it is at least possible such a leap would occur? Maybe I'm being too rosy-eyed, but I have hopes for both.

I think, also, it doesn't have to be Ohtani or bust. Rivera could end up as a good reliever who can also hold his own as a pinch-hitter, if the team has the need. Holmes could end up as a 4th outfielder/relief hybrid. Meaning, just as Trout shouldn't be the bar against whom all prospects are measured, Ohtani shouldn't be the bar for two-way players. There are variations below that level that would still be useful.

 

[Taylor]

With the Angels' luck, Walsh just thinking of throwing a pitch would cause him to tear his elbow.

 

[happybat4]

I wonder how Greinke would have done if he focused on hitting.

[Second Base]

26 minutes ago, Angelsjunky said:

Given Rivera's (and Holmes') age, don't you think it is at least possible such a leap would occur? Maybe I'm being too rosy-eyed, but I have hopes for both.

I think, also, it doesn't have to be Ohtani or bust. Rivera could end up as a good reliever who can also hold his own as a pinch-hitter, if the team has the need. Holmes could end up as a 4th outfielder/relief hybrid. Meaning, just as Trout shouldn't be the bar against whom all prospects are measured, Ohtani shouldn't be the bar for two-way players. There are variations below that level that would still be useful.

 

I do think it's possible, but I think those leaps come as a result of time and experience, and if their attention is diverted, such a leap may take years, if it comes at all. 

Or perhaps the leaps are simply the result of physical maturation in which case, it's coming no matter what for certain athletes. 

I don't want to use Ohtani as the measuring stick, just as using Ruth was unfair to Ohtani. But I think a true two way player has to be someone that works well on both sides of the ball. Otherwise, Madison Bumgarner is definitely a dual threat player.

Being a reliever that occasionally plays the outfield in the 9th inning is more like a two-way reserve, not two way starter. But that's really splitting hairs. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Second Base

[Angelsjunky]

14 minutes ago, Second Base said:

I do think it's possible, but I think those leaps come as a result of time and experience, and if their attention is diverted, such a leap may take years, if it comes at all. 

Or perhaps the leaps are simply the result of physical maturation in which case, it's coming no matter what for certain athletes. 

I don't want to use Ohtani as the measuring stick, just as using Ruth was unfair to Ohtani. But I think a true two way player has to be someone that works well on both sides of the ball. Otherwise, Madison Bumgarner is definitely a dual threat player.

Being a reliever that occasionally plays the outfield in the 9th inning is more like a two-way reserve, not two way starter. But that's really splitting hairs. 

Yes, true - but that's kind of my point. A two-way reserve can be a very useful player. Ohtani at least opens the door for that possibility. "It can be done."

Of course the reason it likely won't happen is that at some point the Angels might be faced with the question: Do we try to develop Erik Rivera into a two-way reserve, or have him focus on pitching with a path to being a very good reliever? A player can only practice so much, and being a two-way is probably a bit like having two girlfriends: if you want to optimize your "relationship potential," it is probably best to focus on one.