Why position players and not pitchers?

[Torridd]

I don't quite understand why the Angels make big free agency strides for position players (Rendon, Pujols, etc.) and not pitchers. Is it a philosophy? It's hard to believe the organization is unlucky in always being a free agency also-ran in these situations. 

[Stradling]

5 minutes ago, Torridd said:

I don't quite understand why the Angels make big free agency strides for position players (Rendon, Pujols, etc.) and not pitchers. Is it a philosophy? It's hard to believe the organization is unlucky in always being a free agency also-ran in these situations. 

I could give you the answer but I will simply sound like an apologist.  Here is my list of free agents and the reasons I remember.

Greinke- we weren’t going to outbid the Dodgers, then got an insane amount of money ($206 million from the DBacks)

Corbin- wanted to pitch back east

Wheeler- wanted to pitch back east

Ryu- missed opportunity?  My personal belief is it was too much risk based on health.

Cole- wanted to pitch for the Yankees, Arte offered $300 million

Keuchel- not big money, but certainly a missed opportunity.  

Strasburg- stayed put in DC (thank god)

 

[Jeremiah]

It is harder to project the health and performance of pitchers than it is for position players. In FA, position players are a safer long-term bet (some positional flexibility, the use of the DH in the AL). 

[Angels 1961]

22 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I could give you the answer but I will simply sound like an apologist.  Here is my list of free agents and the reasons I remember.

Greinke- we weren’t going to outbid the Dodgers, then got an insane amount of money ($206 million from the DBacks)

Corbin- wanted to pitch back east

Wheeler- wanted to pitch back east

Ryu- missed opportunity?  My personal belief is it was too much risk based on health.

Cole- wanted to pitch for the Yankees, Arte offered $300 million

Keuchel- not big money, but certainly a missed opportunity.  

Strasburg- stayed put in DC (thank god)

 

We did get CJ Wilson at the time seemed like a good deal

[floplag]

33 minutes ago, Stradling said:

I could give you the answer but I will simply sound like an apologist.  Here is my list of free agents and the reasons I remember.

Greinke- we weren’t going to outbid the Dodgers, then got an insane amount of money ($206 million from the DBacks)

Corbin- wanted to pitch back east

Wheeler- wanted to pitch back east

Ryu- missed opportunity?  My personal belief is it was too much risk based on health.

Cole- wanted to pitch for the Yankees, Arte offered $300 million

Keuchel- not big money, but certainly a missed opportunity.  

Strasburg- stayed put in DC (thank god)

 

I for one would love to hear your actual answer to that one.   No sarcasm, im legit curious. 

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, floplag said:

I for one would love to hear your actual answer to that one.   No sarcasm, im legit curious. 

What do you want to know?  Do I believe Wheeler and Corbin wanted to pitch back east, yes.  Why, because they said so at the time, then ended up doing just that.  Do I believe there is a world where we can outbid the Dodgers or the Yankees, no.  Do I wish we would have signed Keuchel for 3 years and $54 million, yes, but I do think we regret the third year.  Would I like it if the Angels signed Ryu, sure, but 4 years and $80 million for a guy who averaged 20 starts a year for his career because of injury, with his physique going into age 33, hard pass.  Those are my opinions.  

[floplag]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

What do you want to know?  Do I believe Wheeler and Corbin wanted to pitch back east, yes.  Why, because they said so at the time, then ended up doing just that.  Do I believe there is a world where we can outbid the Dodgers or the Yankees, no.  Do I wish we would have signed Keuchel for 3 years and $54 million, yes, but I do think we regret the third year.  Would I like it if the Angels signed Ryu, sure, but 4 years and $80 million for a guy who averaged 20 starts a year for his career because of injury, with his physique going into age 33, hard pass.  Those are my opinions.  

OK well we knew that i was referring to your comment about 'i could give you the answer but instead" thus and so... Thought you had something different in mind.  
Thanks

[Taylor]

Pitchers aren't players?

[Angelsjunky]

95%+ of the time free agents go for the biggest money, regardless of the team offering it. A player's preference comes in when offered equal or very similar amounts. I mean, if you're Gerrit Cole, do you want to play for the greatest sports franchise in the world in the greatest city in the world or the Angels in Anaheim? (I know, the weather, but...).

When you look at the big free agent contracts the Angels have given, they outbid everyone by a substantial amount. I believe the Cardinals offered Pujols $200M and the Angels upped that by 25%. No one wanted Hamilton for the money they gave him. I don't know what Rendon was offered, but am pretty sure no one offered $35M AAV.

 

[Angels in 2030]

The real problem was the lack of drafting (US draft & Int'l FA) pitchers and developing them internally.  This goes back the last 5-8 years prior to the 2020 draft.  Signing pitchers in FA are actually a very bad investment in general & historically speaking.

[failos]

Arte likes the home runs

[Torridd]

1 hour ago, Jeremiah said:

It is harder to project the health and performance of pitchers than it is for position players. In FA, position players are a safer long-term bet (some positional flexibility, the use of the DH in the AL). 

So the Angels have a more "hold" attitude than "hit me" one for pitchers essentially?

[Torridd]

53 minutes ago, Fourts said:

The real problem was the lack of drafting (US draft & Int'l FA) pitchers and developing them internally.  This goes back the last 5-8 years prior to the 2020 draft.  Signing pitchers in FA are actually a very bad investment in general & historically speaking.

So why do they try?

[ten ocho recon scout]

Ill add here that if you look at the amount of money we wasted on really horrible pitchers, that we outspent a lot of teams on that. So, i mean... we do spend.

[Torridd]

5 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Ill add here that if you look at the amount of money we wasted on really horrible pitchers, that we outspent a lot of teams on that. So, i mean... we do spend.

Ha! On bad pitchers? 

[T.G.]

2 hours ago, Taylor said:

Pitchers aren't players?

Just Ohtani.

[Blarg]

2 hours ago, Taylor said:

Pitchers aren't players?

This isn't the Spin forum, don't be a putz. 

[Dtwncbad]

3 hours ago, Angels 1961 said:

We did get CJ Wilson at the time seemed like a good deal

I don’t get the CJ Wilson bashing (as a player).  He did his job as an Angel starter.

The dude was a little weird on the personal side, but I don’t ever understand referencing Wilson as an example of a bad free agent signing.

[T.G.]

1 minute ago, Dtwncbad said:

I don’t get the CJ Wilson bashing (as a player).  He did his job as an Angel starter.

The dude was a little weird on the personal side, but I don’t ever understand referencing Wilson as an example of a bad free agent signing.

You work at one of his dealerships, don't you?

[tdawg87]

I don’t count Pujols, as Arte also gave Wilson a big contract, not to mention Weaver. But since then? I'd say it's a product of circumstance. 

I think Hamilton was a pivot. In hindsight this was a horrifyingly awful decision, but at the time it only seemed like a risky one. The others just kind of came about because of need. Upton was signed because we had a hole in LF for like, a decade. 

I think Rendon was also a pivot but given the stories I've read recently it may have been a legit possibility we would have gotten Cole as well had he chosen to sign here. Not to mention 3B had also been a massive hole for this organization.

[angelsnationtalk]

BECAUSE, ANGELS THAT'S WHY

[ten ocho recon scout]

11 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

I don’t count Pujols, as Arte also gave Wilson a big contract, not to mention Weaver. But since then? I'd say it's a product of circumstance. 

I think Hamilton was a pivot. In hindsight this was a horrifyingly awful decision, but at the time it only seemed like a risky one. The others just kind of came about because of need. Upton was signed because we had a hole in LF for like, a decade. 

I think Rendon was also a pivot but given the stories I've read recently it may have been a legit possibility we would have gotten Cole as well had he chosen to sign here. Not to mention 3B had also been a massive hole for this organization.

I think Hamilton was Arte going all in, especially after we lost grienke. Wed been winning for so long, that arte probably assumed adding another MVP to go back to back w albert would be his manny/ortiz combo. 

At the time I think a lot felt that way (with few realizing the problems it would cost w the draft, a weakening farm, etc etc).

Horrible, horrible move. And I got bumped a few years ago for saying it at the time (but i said it for the wrong reasons, not what it ended up being). Albert and hamilton sunk the team for better part of the decade. But at the time, it seemed like a "wowwwww" move.

Essentially, once arte got pujols, it created a situation where we needed to justify it. The problem, aside from albert himself, was the pitching market. It got lean, and real expensive. And we had no farm to bail us out. So we bought hitters... who sucked.

We created a mess. But at the time, a decade ago, most fans were clamoring for it.

To be fair, we could have fixed a ton of problems trading trout a few years back... but fans would have gone apeshit if we did that too

[BTH]

I'd be interested to see how Arte responded if a reporter directly asked him: "why haven't you spent significant money on a starting pitcher since CJ Wilson?"

The problem is that Arte rarely talks to the media, so there aren't a ton of opportunities for someone to directly ask him that.

[T.G.]

[Torridd]

52 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

I don’t count Pujols, as Arte also gave Wilson a big contract, not to mention Weaver. But since then? I'd say it's a product of circumstance. 

I think Hamilton was a pivot. In hindsight this was a horrifyingly awful decision, but at the time it only seemed like a risky one. The others just kind of came about because of need. Upton was signed because we had a hole in LF for like, a decade. 

I think Rendon was also a pivot but given the stories I've read recently it may have been a legit possibility we would have gotten Cole as well had he chosen to sign here. Not to mention 3B had also been a massive hole for this organization.

So basically bad luck?