In order for the Angels to contend...

[angelsnationtalk]

It's been 6 years since we last went to the playoffs and it's been 11 years since we last won a playoff game.
LET THAT ONE SINK IN.

If what we've been discussing is true that we're better off getting better players (pitchers) via trade (less money, younger player, cheaper control)
then I'd hate to say it but we're still a few years from playoffs (no duh). The Angels will need likely need to deal someone like Adell to acquire that type of pitching to get the ball rolling. 

The only solid pitcher we have is Dylan Bundy and even he is a #2 type guy at best.

It comes down to this question... 

Knowing that Adell could one day become an all-star type stud. Knowing that he can grow into on hell of a baseball player. 
Knowing Trout is in his prime and deserves the playoffs. Knowing that the fans have been waiting.
Would you honestly trade Adell in a package to get a controllable Ace? What would the package look like?

[Stradling]

Sure, but the list is short of who I would trade him for.  Most of those guys won’t get traded.  I don’t remember the last time we saw a young stud hitter traded for a young stud pitcher in MLB.  

Our road to competing sooner rather than later is going to cost money and prospects.  However if we did trade a package, that doesn’t include Adell, for Clevinger, added Bauer in the off season and kept Bundy (assuming he doesn’t turn into a pumpkin), then I think we are looking at competing next year.  

[zenmaster]

I'd wait to consider trading Adell. Him sucking it up this year has definitely temporarily (hopefully) lowered his value. 

[Mark PT]

36 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Sure, but the list is short of who I would trade him for.  Most of those guys won’t get traded.  I don’t remember the last time we saw a young stud hitter traded for a young stud pitcher in MLB.  

Our road to competing sooner rather than later is going to cost money and prospects.  However if we did trade a package, that doesn’t include Adell, for Clevinger, added Bauer in the off season and kept Bundy (assuming he doesn’t turn into a pumpkin), then I think we are looking at competing next year.  

Closer to competing but not quite. That is only two pitcher, what about the bullpen and other 3 starters? Then, what about depth? We are 4-5 years from competing unless we get extremely lucky.

[Stradling]

3 minutes ago, Mark PT said:

Closer to competing but not quite. That is only two pitcher, what about the bullpen and other 3 starters? Then, what about depth? We are 4-5 years from competing unless we get extremely lucky.

Well it is 3 starters and you can get away with Canning and Heaney when you have Clevinger, Bundy and Bauer.  The bullpen is a crap shoot year to year.  Even established guys are up and down when they are bullpen arms.  

[Angel Oracle]

On the bright side, Bauer is supposedly only taking one year deals. going forward.    No more huge contracts to outside the org FAs!

Wondering if by 2022, Bauer, Detmers, Bundy, Sandoval, and Rodriguez will be enough to contend in a normal 5 teams per league post-season? 

[Mark PT]

35 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Well it is 3 starters and you can get away with Canning and Heaney when you have Clevinger, Bundy and Bauer.  The bullpen is a crap shoot year to year.  Even established guys are up and down when they are bullpen arms.  

I appreciate you optimism but I still see two maybe three what if's in that rotation and, as you said, the bullpen is year to year. 

[Stradling]

Just now, Mark PT said:

I appreciate you optimism but I still see two maybe three what if's in that rotation and, as you said, the bullpen is year to year. 

What you see is 2-3 back end of the rotation starters, like most teams have, even playoff teams.  For the last two spots you have Ohtani, Canning, Sandoval, Heaney, Suarez and Detmers right behind them.  That doesn’t include guys like Barria or possibly the emergence of Chris Rodriguez.  I would love to upgrade the bullpen, but unless you sign the very best of the best you get inconsistent results.  Kimbrel was the best of the best then turned bad.  A guy like Soria was pretty bad last year with a high 4 ERA is great this year.  I have no idea how you predict these things.  Which is why you have to build a pen from the farm.  

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

I'd be fine with the Angels trading Adell and others in a package for a legit #1-2 or a younger guy already in the majors with that potential while any such acquisition has either club control or is under contract for at least 2 more years.  Cleveland brought Clevinger up to start today but they left Plesac down saying they don't have a spot for him right now as they're giving Mckenzie another start.  Maybe it means absolutely nothing but if Plesac is optioned for 18 or more days (at 11 currently) then he doesn't gain a year of service time.  The same applies to Clevinger who they brought back up but maybe his start is a showcase before they move him after which point they can bring Plesac up and keep that other year of club control.  My willingness to deal Adell isn't because of his struggles it's because he's a valuable trade piece and the Angels desperately need SP.  Adding the type of SP they need at the deadline would be huge because going into the off season without acquiring that pitcher has them depending on FA again which could turn into 1 year deals on the Teheran/Harvey/Cahill's of the world if they don't land someone like Bauer.

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Catwhoshatinthehat said:

I'd be fine with the Angels trading Adell and others in a package for a legit #1-2 or a younger guy already in the majors with that potential while any such acquisition has either club control or is under contract for at least 2 more years.  Cleveland brought Clevinger up to start today but they left Plesac down saying they don't have a spot for him right now as they're giving Mckenzie another start.  Maybe it means absolutely nothing but if Plesac is optioned for 18 or more days (at 11 currently) then he doesn't gain a year of service time.  The same applies to Clevinger who they brought back up but maybe his start is a showcase before they move him after which point they can bring Plesac up and keep that other year of club control.  My willingness to deal Adell isn't because of his struggles it's because he's a valuable trade piece and the Angels desperately need SP.  Adding the type of SP they need at the deadline would be huge because going into the off season without acquiring that pitcher has them depending on FA again which could turn into 1 year deals on the Teheran/Harvy/Cahill's of the world. 

Clevinger was in the same boat for service time is my understanding.  If that is the case and 18 days was the magic number then Cleveland just screwed themselves by bringing up Clevinger to start.  He is worth considerably more if he has an extra year of service time and he was a known commodity.  So either the article I read about the two and their service time is wrong or they screwed up.  

[tdawg87]

Look I'm fine having the discussion, this is a message board after all. But the fact that so many people are now jumping on the "Trade Adell" bandwagon after 20 games is absolutely on brand for Angelswin.

We've seen a crazy influx the last couple years of generational talent coming up and kiling it right away, and unfortunately it's made people forget just how hard baseball is and how most players don't get called up and immediately make a huge impact. Trout didn't do that. 

2 months ago Adell was untouchable. Hell we wouldn't even consider giving him up for Clevinger. 20 games later and we suddenly want to trade him for...Clevinger?

There's a reason teams don't trade prospects like Adell often.

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

18 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Clevinger was in the same boat for service time is my understanding.  If that is the case and 18 days was the magic number then Cleveland just screwed themselves by bringing up Clevinger to start.  He is worth considerably more if he has an extra year of service time and he was a known commodity.  So either the article I read about the two and their service time is wrong or they screwed up.  

Yeah like I said the same applies to Clevinger as far as service time.  They needed to bring up a pitcher as Plutko has been terrible this year and they're currently 1.5 games back of Minnesota who they play today.  I'm guessing if they they were 5+ games back they would have kept Plutko in the rotation for one more start.  Unlike the Angels they're not thinking about next season right now as they have one of the best pitching staffs and a shot this year especially if they can improve the offense.  If the Angels were in the position Cleveland is I'm sure most fans would absolutely say bring him up to pitch today especially going against the team ahead in the standings as a win means gaining a game. 

[Duren, Duren]

Until Pujols and Upton are both off the books I don't see how they can contend. Especially in a 162 game season. The bang for the buck that they provide is infinitesimal, and severely restricts the front office from boldly moving forward. No financial flexibility plus two roster spots where career minor leaguers could put up similar numbers. 

Build the minor league system, hold onto the best prospects, try and make some modest trades for younger players with upside. Wait a few years and reset with more resources. 

[yk9001]

How many teams trade a "controllable Ace"?

[Stradling]

15 minutes ago, yk9001 said:

How many teams trade a "controllable Ace"?

None.  Unless you are talking about a team like Cleveland and their “Ace” is Clevinger yet they have Bieber who is better.  They also seem to be a pipeline of good pitching.  The Braves have a few guys that you don’t have to squint to see as Aces.  As do the Padres.  But with both the Braves and Padres they aren’t “Aces” yet.  The Dodgers could also trade a Dustin May who very well could develop into an Ace.  But no teams seldom trade controllable aces.

[VariousCrap]

The current plan for building the rotation and bullpen is not and has not been working.

It is time for Arte to start spending money on the rotation and bullpen.

Pitching is the most important part of a winning team.

 

 

 

[Claude]

1 hour ago, tdawg87 said:

Look I'm fine having the discussion, this is a message board after all. But the fact that so many people are now jumping on the "Trade Adell" bandwagon after 20 games is absolutely on brand for Angelswin.

We've seen a crazy influx the last couple years of generational talent coming up and kiling it right away, and unfortunately it's made people forget just how hard baseball is and how most players don't get called up and immediately make a huge impact. Trout didn't do that. 

2 months ago Adell was untouchable. Hell we wouldn't even consider giving him up for Clevinger. 20 games later and we suddenly want to trade him for...Clevinger?

There's a reason teams don't trade prospects like Adell often.

Then they should’ve listened to us 20 games ago. Or last season when we maybe could’ve had Betts. But now the league has had a sneak peek at Adell. Are we in a position to even ask for a front line pitcher for Adell at this point. He’s still very raw.

[Claude]

1 hour ago, Duren, Duren said:

Until Pujols and Upton are both off the books I don't see how they can contend. Especially in a 162 game season. The bang for the buck that they provide is infinitesimal, and severely restricts the front office from boldly moving forward. No financial flexibility plus two roster spots where career minor leaguers could put up similar numbers. 

Build the minor league system, hold onto the best prospects, try and make some modest trades for younger players with upside. Wait a few years and reset with more resources. 

This ^^^^^^^^^^
 

There won’t be 8 wild card spots next season. 

[Stradling]

I like that because AngelsWin says so we could have traded Adell for Yelich or Betts.  Just to be clear I still wouldn’t trade Adell for one year of Betts.  I would however would have traded him for what Yelich became after leaving the Marlins.  

[wopphil]

I am probably the most pessimistic about this team and direction of the organization than I have ever been. I am actually at the point where I’d be open to a complete overhaul, including even trading Trout (this is a position I have never once advocated). I realize that cannot and will not happen for a number of reasons, but I dont see this team competing while Trout and Rendon are still in their prime. 

[Angel Oracle]

Until they have real pitching in place, and not a bunch of Rudy Steins and one solid guy (Bundy), they are not contending.

Hopefully by 2023, that will change going forward.

[Angel]

We are not competing next year, no way I am falling for that meme again.  We are 1 more year of rebuilding our pitching staff away from getting back into WC contention at the very best.

 

UNLESS we can pull off some magic and retool our staff over winter AND Ohtani becomes a reliable 3 guy ANNNNNND Bundy continues to be top rotation stuff.  I give it a 10% chance of happening.

[eligrba]

2 hours ago, yk9001 said:

How many teams trade a "controllable Ace"?

At this point I think it would make a huge impact to have 5 pitchers who were average in every statistical category.

[angelsnationtalk]

1 hour ago, wopphil said:

I am probably the most pessimistic about this team and direction of the organization than I have ever been. I am actually at the point where I’d be open to a complete overhaul, including even trading Trout (this is a position I have never once advocated). I realize that cannot and will not happen for a number of reasons, but I dont see this team competing while Trout and Rendon are still in their prime. 

I can understand your take on this. One thing for sure is Mike Trout deserves the playoffs. He also deserves a couple of rings on his finger. Do I want it to be with the Angels? Of course. If worst came to worst in a few years and the Angels are still tanking by say 2026 when Trout is 34 then I can't complain if he requests a trade.

Am I open to trade anyone else on the team not named Trout right now? Honestly I would have to say.... yes. And I have never wanted this to happen.

[Claude]

We’ve really wasted numerous opportunities to build around Trout. It would truly be a double whammy to waste the best years of both Trout and Rendon. This organization needs to get it together.