Is Trout clutch or not?

[JustATroutFan]

There's two sides of this. Trout, to me, is clutch but he's not the best at being clutch. His career slash line in high leverage situations is actually excellent. But it feels like he doesn't get that big hit late in a close game. Of course, he's been walked a lot late in games, so that doesn't help his cause. And then there are those who will just nit pick and say that Trout isn't clutch because of this and that. Might even bring up his fluky postseason numbers that's a small sample size. 12 at bats, who gives! 

[Stradling]

Is clutch a real thing?  

[oldguy]

He has the worst clutch numbers in MLB year after year.  I know, I know ...but when you watch him, he just isn't clutch.  Perhaps I expect too much since he's Trout.  But it seems like he does all his damage in the early innings.  Also, in his one playoff series, he performed horribly.  There's just something about that look in his eyes...it doesn't say "killer-instinct".  

I also think he's very aware.  Under pressure, I think you want the player who is a little too dense to understand the gravity of the situation.  The Lenny Dykstra types.

Honestly, I no longer expect anything of him in clutch situations.

I no longer expect anything of Pujols, Upton, and our bullpen in any situations.

 

[oldguy]

35 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Is clutch a real thing?  

Yep.  Its very obvious in sports like golf.  If you look at the all-time Angel leaders in "Clutch", its exactly who you would expect.  Benjie Molina, Spezio, Erstad, Boone, Kole Calhoun, Figgins, Fletch.   

 

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, oldguy said:

Yep.  Its very obvious in sports like golf.  If you look at the all-time Angel leaders in "Clutch", its exactly who you would expect.  Benjie Molina, Spezio, Erstad, Boone, Kole Calhoun, Figgins, Fletch.   

 

And yet Trout has been better than any of them in the clutch stats is my guess.

[JustATroutFan]

8 minutes ago, oldguy said:

Yep.  Its very obvious in sports like golf.  If you look at the all-time Angel leaders in "Clutch", its exactly who you would expect.  Benjie Molina, Spezio, Erstad, Boone, Kole Calhoun, Figgins, Fletch.   

 

Calhoun? All I remember him doing in big spots was strikeout, strikeout, and strikeout. And he didn't walk a lot, either. 

[Stradling]

Just now, JustATroutFan said:

Calhoun? All I remember him doing in big spots was strikeout, strikeout, and strikeout. And he didn't walk a lot, either. 

Clutch is very subjective.  People remember when you come through and when you fail.  

[Justin]

1 hour ago, JustATroutFan said:

Trout, to me, is clutch but he's not the best at being clutch. 

This is fantastic.

[Blarg]

21 minutes ago, oldguy said:

Yep.  Its very obvious in sports like golf.  If you look at the all-time Angel leaders in "Clutch", its exactly who you would expect.  Benjie Molina, Spezio, Erstad, Boone, Kole Calhoun, Figgins, Fletch.   

 

You obviously do not use stats while creating opinions. 

[Brandon]

Sorry man. I lost you at this to make thread about him not being "clutch":

Trout, to me, is clutch but he's not the best at being clutch. His career slash line in high leverage situations is actually excellent

[Chuck]

I will say it because nobody else has the balls.

Trout is an amazing player and will go down as one of the greats. 

That said, he doesn't have the flair in the clutch as Vlad Guerrero and other HOF ball players have had, yet...

[Brandon]

1 minute ago, Chuckster70 said:

I will say it because nobody else has the balls.

Trout is an amazing player and will go down as one of the greats. 

That said, he doesn't have the flair in the clutch as Vlad Guerrero and other HOF ball players have had, yet...

I'll play ball.

Baseball is a team game. We can all agree on that.

If I hit a homer in the first and fifth inning, but we lose is that on me?

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, Brandon said:

I'll play ball.

Baseball is a team game. We can all agree on that.

If I hit a homer in the first and fifth inning, but we lose is that on me?

Not on you at all.  But they will only remember you watching strike 3 go by in the ninth and not the two earlier home runs. 

[Brandon]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Not on you at all.  But they will only remember you watching strike 3 go by in the ninth and not the two earlier home runs. 

Part of the reason I dislike society.

[Claude]

Trout is not even the best hitter on the team. That’s a nice problem. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

Is clutch a real thing?  

No

[Jeff Fletcher]

1 hour ago, oldguy said:

Yep.  Its very obvious in sports like golf.  If you look at the all-time Angel leaders in "Clutch", its exactly who you would expect.  Benjie Molina, Spezio, Erstad, Boone, Kole Calhoun, Figgins, Fletch.   

 

Where did you find this list?

[Jeff Fletcher]

<PRE>                             
Rk              Player WPA/LI
1           Mike Trout 50.492
2           Tim Salmon 23.561
3        Brian Downing 22.067
4    Vladimir Guerrero 16.239
5          Bobby Grich 13.967
6          Jim Fregosi 13.782
7         Wally Joyner  9.346
8           Troy Glaus  8.317
9          Chili Davis  8.304
10       Doug DeCinces  8.197
</PRE>

 

[Jeff Fletcher]

High leverage, 7th inning or later, since 2000

Edited August 22, 2020 by Jeff Fletcher

[angelinkc]

Still too early to judge. Our line-up has been dogshit for most of his career. 

[Docwaukee]

Clutch measures a player against himself.  not others.  Are they as good in high leverage as they are in lower leverage situations.  It's doesn't take into account whether they are still very good.  A career 1.000 ops player who has a .900 ops in high leverage situations would not be considered clutch.  

WPA/LI actually neutralizes leverage and effectively gives us the players overall value or talent.  

None this takes into account whether a player is allowed to be clutch.  

Mike Trout has a career ops of .958 in innings 7-9.  It's over 1.000 in innings 1-6.  In high leverage his ops is .972 and about .990 otherwise.  But it's the OBP vs. SLG split that makes the difference.  In high leverage his obp is about 10 point above his career avg and his slg is about 50 points below.  

It only sort of matter who's after him.  Frankly it really doesn't.  Even if it's Rendon to follow.  Why?  Because Trout is the best player in baseball.  You're gonna dance around the margins of the zone and if you walk him, then so be it.  I'd rather face Rendon than Trout.  I'd rather face anyone else.  and that's what happens.  He might get some strikes earlier in the game but later on, he's not gonna beat me.  If I have to walk Rendon too then fuck it.  I'll walk him as well.  

If Brian Goodwin or Albert Pujols beat me, then so be it.  Once in awhile I'll slip a cookie past Trout and now Rendon because they're human.  But if I'm on the mound I'm gonna dance around and try to beg borrow and steal for three strikes and make damn sure I don't make a mistake.  If I do and they don't hurt me it's because I got lucky and for no other reason.  

[JustATroutFan]

Just a reason why Clutch Score stupid. Up there with RBI's. Trout's career Clutch Score is minus 5.4. Yet, his career slash line in high leverage is still outstanding. It's like me having a 94% in a math class on the final day of the final and I score a 90% on the final. So, I guess I'm not "clutch". Stupid stat. 

[Angel Oracle]

Fletch’s list shows how the 2002 Halos rolled.   Spez, Glaus, and GA all had great stats.

[oldguy]

7 hours ago, Blarg said:

You obviously do not use stats while creating opinions. 

Just the "clutch" stats from Fangraphs.  Can't find them anywhere else.

[bloodbrother]

6 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

High leverage, 7th inning or later, since 2000

Thank you for saving me the time of doing this so I could dunk on the OP.