Ken Rosenthal: No more excuses for Eppler

[Claude]

8 minutes ago, yk9001 said:

If we win 85 games, at least there will be some mildly interesting September games.

Better than this dreck.

It’s been quite a drought and we are watching Mike Trout destroy the league. We even let a semi productive year of Pujols go all for not. So yeah, it’s time to stop the excuses and put a competitive team on the field. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Calzone 2

[mulwin444]

5 minutes ago, floplag said:

I see a lot of people saying if if if.   
If he can sign 2 arms... well, thats a self created situation.  Thats what happens when you wait till the last minute and dont take care of some of that in advance.  Weve had a ton of opportunities to make trades or sign FAs in the last couple of years and have chosen not to.  We have backed ourselves into that corner, no one put us there. 
This isnt an IF at this point, its a must in my opinion.  one thru FA, another perhaps thru trade if necessary, we have some tradable assets, use them.
It tells me a great deal that they picked up his option, but did not extend him.  If this club doesnt take significant strides next season, im not sure hes back. 
We wasted one of the best seasons a player has ever had in Trout this year, and probably the best we will get out of Albert.  Again a wholly self inflicted wound.  If we had gotten 2 actual pitchers over the dumpster diving we did this year we are in the playoff mix now, today, not this time next year.
Yes i know hindsight is always 20/20 but many of us believe this was possible now and got told be patient, work the plan, they will when the time is right... well, this is what we got for that. 
The org should legit be embarrassed right now to be this bad, with what we have gotten from some of the position players.   

Who should Eppler have signed this past offseason?

[angelsnationtalk]

9 minutes ago, Calzone 2 said:

It’s been quite a drought and we are watching Mike Trout destroy the league. We even let a semi productive year of Pujols go all for not. So yeah, it’s time to stop the excuses and put a competitive team on the field. 

I know Trout is amazing, but i wonder how much better he will be when we're in a playoff spot? That motivation alone could increase his already big numbers.

[angelsnationtalk]

25 minutes ago, nate said:

Eppler honestly has an impossible job.  I think he has done good work getting the system back to a decent spot, not sure about scouting though.  Pitching continues to be decimated, and I really doubt the Angels will sign Cole.  Gigantic FA contracts for pitchers never work out.  Neither do one year contracts.  The fact is, unless you are the Astros and you can swindle a team for a pitcher of Verlander's quality, the Angels will be right back in their current situation until they can develop more pitchers.

Also don't forget that the Astros were bad for a long time, all those years of drafting in the top 3 obviously paid off.  The Angels meanwhile were dominant for a decade and then just became an average to below average team, not many sure picks in the MLB draft outside of the top 10.

The Angels go into next season with a very young pitching staff and a Skaggs sized hole.  Plus all the injuries that will inevitably happen.

You also cannot underestimate how much Reagins/Scioscia and Diputo emptying out the farm system year after year sets you back.

I think 3 things with signing Cole that worries me. This is also in order of likelihood of happening. 

1: The Angels overpay for Cole (which I wouldn't mind IF he does good)

2: We make offers (like to Corbin) but we won't make offer bigger to swoop him away

3: We make offer and wait only on him and then realize he took more money elsewhere.

[Chuck]

Gerrit Cole is worth the money IMO. 

This guy struck out Yelich with a 100 mph fastball on his 103rd pitch the other day. The guy is a beast. 

[angelsnationtalk]

2 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

Gerrit Cole is worth the money IMO. 

This guy struck out Yelich with a 100 mph fastball on his 103rd pitch the other day. The guy is a beast. 

And I agree. If we can throw stupid money at Pujols then Cole should be a no doubt question. I just hope he doesn't come here and then need TJS like everyone else we get. That's why we need more than just him

[mulwin444]

2 minutes ago, Chuckster70 said:

Gerrit Cole is worth the money IMO. 

This guy struck out Yelich with a 100 mph fastball on his 103rd pitch the other day. The guy is a beast. 

Yeah, this is THE move for Arte/Eppler...an obvious need that can be filled by among the best in the league where you essentially control the outcome - you just have to pony up the dough.

It's the moves that come after that I think could be more questionable but going after and signing Cole should be a no-brainer.

[yk9001]

I know I am negative nelly, but I just have the feeling that as soon as Cole signs here, he'll get herpes on his throwing hand, or get the yips, or just turn shitty.

It seems so far fetched that we can sign a top name FA and he comes here and impresses.  Vlad and Bartolo were a long time ago.

[nate]

Cole is going to get offers of like 6 years 180 million, I think it is too much, especially when every new pitcher to join the Angels blows out their UCL within the first six months.

[floplag]

22 minutes ago, mulwin444 said:

Who should Eppler have signed this past offseason?

no point rehashing, its moot, and it isnt just this off season its the deadline it almost anything the last couple of years where we could have made moves and didnt. 
It doesnt matter most here love the Eppler plan, i understand but do not like it as we have intentionally wasted time waiting for something that may never happen.
Were not going to agree and im tired of the constant fighting around here so ... take it for whatever its worth .

[Claude]

3 minutes ago, yk9001 said:

I know I am negative nelly, but I just have the feeling that as soon as Cole signs here, he'll get herpes on his throwing hand, or get the yips, or just turn shitty.

It seems so far fetched that we can sign a top name FA and he comes here and impresses.  Vlad and Bartolo were a long time ago.

Cole has been a terrific stud pitcher for Houston at $13.5M

Lets see how he pitches for a guaranteed $30M per 

[Blarg]

34 minutes ago, mulwin444 said:

Who should Eppler have signed this past offseason?

The successful free agents. Damn your dumz.

[wopphil]

And it really shouldn't be a tough offseason. The need is glaring - pitching. There is tons of starting pitching available on the free agent market, and he team has lots of money to spend. 

On day 1 of free agency, Eppler can literally make half a dozen offers and sign the first three who accept.

[Blarg]

If t'were so simple.

[Docwaukee]

There are 6 guys on the 40 man roster right now that were here when Eppler started.   

Mike Trout
Andrew Heaney
Nick Tropeano
Cam Bedrosian
Albert Pujos
Kole Calhoun

That could be down to 3 by the start of next season.  

List of players who were with the org when Eppler started but were not on the 40 man

Justin Anderson
Jaime Barria
David Fletcher
Mike Hermosillo
Jake Jewell
Keynan Middleton
Jose Rodriguez
Jose Suarez
Jared Walsh
Taylor Ward

There are currently still two other players on our top 30 prospect list that were here prior to when Eppler arrived. 

Jam Jones
Hector Yan

He made the following transactions:

Buttrey for Kinsler (a 1yr rental)
Canning - drafted
Cole - waiver
Del Pozo - waiver
Garcia - trade for Alvarez
Goodwin - waiver
La Stella - for Connor Lillis - White (hasn't pitched this year)
Madero - trade for David Hernandez who was a waiver pickup
Mejia - waiver
Ohtani - intl FA
Peters - waiver
Noe Ramirez - waiver
Rengifo - trade for CJ Cron
Robles - waiver
Sandoval - trade for Maldonado who he got for Jett Bandy
Simmons - trade for Newcomb, Aybar, Ellis
Smith - waiver
Stassi - trade for Uceta and Rivas
Thaiss - draft
Upton - trade for Grayson Long (retired) and Elvin Rodriguez (doing decently in A+ for the tigers at age 21)

Other players that were on the roster when he started

Kaleb Cowart
Taylor Featherston
Johnny Giavotella
Trevor Gott - traded for Escobar
Grant Green
Kyle Kubitza
Mike Morin
Carlos Perez
Cory Rasmus
Garrett Richards
Fernando Salas
Hector Santiago
Matt Shoemaker
Tyler Skaggs
Joe Smith - traded for Luis Castillo
Huston Street
Jered Weaver
CJ Wilson

 

I would like everyone to look at the pile of dung Eppler inherited.  Even some of the potentially capable pitchers threw about 1/4th of their expected innings.  

he somehow parlayed that into a strong offense, and solid bullpen, 4 of the youngest starting pitchers in baseball (albeit none of who are top of the rotation candidates), the best international prospect in baseball who's a two way player, and a solid farm system that's probably somewhere in the middle of the pack with at least one elite player about to crack the majors.

He doesn't get a pass for the FA choices he's made by any stretch and if he has another year of bad decisions in that regard, it could spell his demise.  The one thing about his ability in that regard is that upon identifying a FA target, there are obviously certain things about that player he looks for and thinks he can get a certain level of production out of.  To fail so miserably in regard what would be expected and what actually happens worries me.  In other words, if you go out and get a guy like Odorizzi, there is no room for him to completely implode the way Cahill, Harvey, Allen and Cozart did.  Even if you can't make him better, he has to be serviceable and at least on par with what you'd expect for a player coming off a mid 3's era when taking a bit of decline into account.     If you're gonna go after guys like Matt Moore or Drew Smyly thinking you can get them back to where they were 3-4 years ago then you are setting yourself up for failure.   

In other words, the high risk, high reward thing can't play anymore.  It's fine in a year where you don't have a ton of options and your only shot at the playoffs is if Matt Harvey become who he was and not who he is.   

So agree that there is some urgency because there are options this year.  At least it seems there will be.  And as some have mentioned, that does come down to Arte to some degree.  But it also comes down to Eppler on selling it to him and whether he truly believes that they are close enough to make that run.  Because there are reasons why he wouldn't get fired for not having a great off season but one thing that will absolutely get him fired is if he convinces Arte to spend some extra cash on free agents and those guys fail.  

I know people are getting impatient and while I agree it's time to start translating foundation into an actual functional structure, the franchise is still way better off than when he started even if the timeline isn't what people want it to be.   I would rather have a house that's well built and going to last for a long time that takes longer to build than one which may look ok on the surface but it's held together with spit, duct tape and elmers sitting on a bed of quick sand.  

[Stradling]

1 hour ago, Chuckster70 said:

Gerrit Cole is worth the money IMO. 

This guy struck out Yelich with a 100 mph fastball on his 103rd pitch the other day. The guy is a beast. 

Correct, how much money is he worth?  At what point will you not blame Eppler if he doesn’t sign him?  Is it $32 million a season, $35 million, $38 million?  Is it 5 years?  6 years?  7 years?  

[Stradling]

7 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

There are 6 guys on the 40 man roster right now that were here when Eppler started.   

Mike Trout
Andrew Heaney
Nick Tropeano
Cam Bedrosian
Albert Pujos
Kole Calhoun

That could be down to 3 by the start of next season.  

List of players who were with the org when Eppler started but were not on the 40 man

Justin Anderson
Jaime Barria
David Fletcher
Mike Hermosillo
Jake Jewell
Keynan Middleton
Jose Rodriguez
Jose Suarez
Jared Walsh
Taylor Ward

There are currently still two other players on our top 30 prospect list that were here prior to when Eppler arrived. 

Jam Jones
Hector Yan

He made the following transactions:

Buttrey for Kinsler (a 1yr rental)
Canning - drafted
Cole - waiver
Del Pozo - waiver
Garcia - trade for Alvarez
Goodwin - waiver
La Stella - for Connor Lillis - White (hasn't pitched this year)
Madero - trade for David Hernandez who was a waiver pickup
Mejia - waiver
Ohtani - intl FA
Peters - waiver
Noe Ramirez - waiver
Rengifo - trade for CJ Cron
Robles - waiver
Sandoval - trade for Maldonado who he got for Jett Bandy
Simmons - trade for Newcomb, Aybar, Ellis
Smith - waiver
Stassi - trade for Uceta and Rivas
Thaiss - draft
Upton - trade for Grayson Long (retired) and Elvin Rodriguez (doing decently in A+ for the tigers at age 21)

Other players that were on the roster when he started

Kaleb Cowart
Taylor Featherston
Johnny Giavotella
Trevor Gott - traded for Escobar
Grant Green
Kyle Kubitza
Mike Morin
Carlos Perez
Cory Rasmus
Garrett Richards
Fernando Salas
Hector Santiago
Matt Shoemaker
Tyler Skaggs
Joe Smith - traded for Luis Castillo
Huston Street
Jered Weaver
CJ Wilson

 

I would like everyone to look at the pile of dung Eppler inherited.  Even some of the potentially capable pitchers threw about 1/4th of their expected innings.  

he somehow parlayed that into a strong offense, and solid bullpen, 4 of the youngest starting pitchers in baseball (albeit none of who are top of the rotation candidates), the best international prospect in baseball who's a two way player, and a solid farm system that's probably somewhere in the middle of the pack with at least one elite player about to crack the majors.

He doesn't get a pass for the FA choices he's made by any stretch and if he has another year of bad decisions in that regard, it could spell his demise.  The one thing about his ability in that regard is that upon identifying a FA target, there are obviously certain things about that player he looks for and thinks he can get a certain level of production out of.  To fail so miserably in regard what would be expected and what actually happens worries me.  In other words, if you go out and get a guy like Odorizzi, there is no room for him to completely implode the way Cahill, Harvey, Allen and Cozart did.  Even if you can't make him better, he has to be serviceable and at least on par with what you'd expect for a player coming off a mid 3's era when taking a bit of decline into account.     If you're gonna go after guys like Matt Moore or Drew Smyly thinking you can get them back to where they were 3-4 years ago then you are setting yourself up for failure.   

In other words, the high risk, high reward thing can't play anymore.  It's fine in a year where you don't have a ton of options and your only shot at the playoffs is if Matt Harvey become who he was and not who he is.   

So agree that there is some urgency because there are options this year.  At least it seems there will be.  And as some have mentioned, that does come down to Arte to some degree.  But it also comes down to Eppler on selling it to him and whether he truly believes that they are close enough to make that run.  Because there are reasons why he wouldn't get fired for not having a great off season but one thing that will absolutely get him fired is if he convinces Arte to spend some extra cash on free agents and those guys fail.  

I know people are getting impatient and while I agree it's time to start translating foundation into an actual functional structure, the franchise is still way better off than when he started even if the timeline isn't what people want it to be.   I would rather have a house that's well built and going to last for a long time that takes longer to build than one which may look ok on the surface but it's held together with spit, duct tape and elmers sitting on a bed of quick sand.  










 

 

 

Can you use this to start a 40 man roster thread?  

[Angelsjunky]

I don't think Eppler "has to" build a championship caliber team by 2020 (95+ wins) but he probably "has to" build a contender (~90 wins). As I've said before, I'd say the bare minimum of acceptability for Eppler is for the Angels to be in contention for a wildcard on September 1 next year. 

I'm also leery about the "Cole or bust" view. While I agree that the Angels really need to improve their rotation, there is more than one road to Rome. Two of Wheeler, Odorizzi, Bumgarner, Ryu, Ray, and Boyd should greatly improve the rotation. Obviously Cole plus one of those guys is better, but we can't assume they'll get Cole.

[Angelsjunky]

3 minutes ago, Baghdad Strad said:

Correct, how much money is he worth?  At what point will you not blame Eppler if he doesn’t sign him?  Is it $32 million a season, $35 million, $38 million?  Is it 5 years?  6 years?  7 years?  

For me his market value is around 6/$180M, but I suspect that he's going to get 7/$210M. I'd be OK, if a bit worried, if the Angels sign him for that. But more than $30M is scary. I suppose 5/$175M is workable.

[Inside Pitch]

1 minute ago, Angelsjunky said:

I don't think Eppler "has to" build a championship caliber team by 2020 (95+ wins) but he probably "has to" build a contender (~90 wins). As I've said before, I'd say the bare minimum of acceptability for Eppler is for the Angels to be in contention for a wildcard on September 1 next year. 

I'm also leery about the "Cole or bust" view. While I agree that the Angels really need to improve their rotation, there is more than one road to Rome. Two of Wheeler, Odorizzi, Bumgarner, Ryu, Ray, and Boyd should greatly improve the rotation. Obviously Cole plus one of those guys is better, but we can't assume they'll get Cole.

Cole is the ideal, but I agree that adding front end pitching period is job #1.  This is 100% why I said they can't make Cole the focus and let other guys slip away.   Make contact, tell him he's their main target then sign the next best pitcher on your list.

The interesting thing will be to see if the guys behind Cole wait to see where the Cole market is heading before making their own deals.

[Angel Oracle]

Regarding Doc's post on acquisitions, Del Pozo has been impressive in his first 6.2 innings, just 4 baserunners allowed.     It is contrasted though to his previous seasons of higher ERA and WHIP in the minors. 

Just a fluke, or somehow something clicked, or MLB hitters having not seen him before? 

[Inside Pitch]

7 minutes ago, Baghdad Strad said:

Correct, how much money is he worth?  At what point will you not blame Eppler if he doesn’t sign him?  Is it $32 million a season, $35 million, $38 million?  Is it 5 years?  6 years?  7 years?  

I think Cole will have at least four teams with large amounts of money on him.  While I don't think he gets Greinke's average, I wouldn't be surprised to see him top the 206 mil he got.   

Boras has always relished setting the bar for highest salary but I don't think he's ever managed it with a pitcher unless Scherzer's deal hit that mark and while it was a lot of money a ton of it was deferred.  So, if that's his goal then you have David Price at 217 mil as the biggest contract ever handed out to a SP.   

Kershaw, Price, Scherzer and Greinke are the only 200 mil pitchers so -- at least those sorts of contracts are very rare.

[Inside Pitch]

Just now, Angel Oracle said:

Regarding Doc's post on acquisitions, Del Pozo has been impressive in his first 6.2 innings, just 4 baserunners allowed.     It is contrasted though to his previous seasons of higher ERA and WHIP in the minors. 

Just a fluke, or somehow something clicked, or MLB hitters having not seen him before? 

Pena, Robles, JC Ramirez..  they all had control issues until getting here.   Not sure what the hell they are doing but it's become a pattern.

[beatlesrule]

2 hours ago, nate said:

 Gigantic FA contracts for pitchers never work out.  Neither do one year contracts. 

Wrong.

[nate]

3 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

Wrong.

Right