Ken Rosenthal: No more excuses for Eppler

[angelsnationtalk]

18 minutes ago, totdprods said:

I think that’s perfectly reasonable. I can see 2021 having been, at one time, a season with higher expectations than WC still, but the deluge of injuries and death of Skaggs have necessitated the advancement of so many young pitchers that I think we might actually be almost a year ‘ahead of schedule’, and they’ve performed decently enough that Eppler has now altered course enough to a point where we’re relying on youngsters more in 2019-2021 than was anticipated. 

Astros will still be good but I think we have a legitimate shot starting 2022 to overtake the division. 

[totdprods]

2 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

Astros will still be good but I think we have a legitimate shot starting 2022 to overtake the division. 

Totally agree. And we shouldn’t burn that window up trying to make 20-21 more competitive than it needs to be. Stay the course.

[angelsnationtalk]

10 minutes ago, totdprods said:

Totally agree. And we shouldn’t burn that window up trying to make 20-21 more competitive than it needs to be. Stay the course.

I agree with that if and only if that means using our financial power for going after a Gerrit Cole and a #2 or #3 starter BUT also not shipping away our prospects. Such prospects like Marsh, Soriano, or whomever figures to become an impactful player in years 2021-2026. The prospect part is what worries me. When the Angels become a serious threat during those years we won't have Upton and that could be the time (2020 and 2021) Marsh needs to get up to speed to be 100% by 2022. I just hope Eppler fills the only holes (pitching) with the financial power. Let the depth of top prospects be the everyday players. 

2022 Could look like: 

Cole, (solid # 2 guy), Ohtani, Heaney (re-signed OR someone else), Canning, Soriano/Sandoval/Suarez

We can get that #2 guy without dealing away Marsh by using the money we will have. Obviously those names will completely change, but you see what i'm getting at. Marsh is only tradable if it's at the deadline and we're in a spot like the Astros to make us WS favorites.  

[Lou]

I'm not going to read this entire thread, but has anyone mentioned that we should sign Cole?

[totdprods]

Personally, if I were in Eppler’s shoes, I would actually be much more interested in trading for a cheap, controllable, #2-3 type than signing one. Cahill and Harvey were supposed to be decent #3-#5 types and they failed spectacularly. Most mid-tier FA SPs seem to be terrible investments in recent years. I’d rather risk dealing away 2-3 prospects from surplus areas (OF, corner infield, , and enjoy the financial flexibility a trade return SP brings than a FA mid-tier SP.

I get that prospects are like gold, but I think it’s by design Eppler has developed those three areas to be so deep. Trading some would allow him to have a lot more flexibility to patch other holes and there won’t always be playing time for every prospect, especially if we’re in the thick of contention 22-26.

[Stradling]

5 hours ago, beatlesrule said:

Off the top of my head, Big FA deal Max Scherzer. 1 year deal Wade Miley.

So yeah, you're wrong.

I’m wondering if by chance @nate meant the version of never that most people mean when using the term never, which is very seldom.  So Max Scherzer is one.  Greinke might be another, however his team traded him and had to eat money.  

[beatlesrule]

4 minutes ago, Baghdad Strad said:

I’m wondering if by chance @nate meant the version of never that most people mean when using the term never, which is very seldom.  So Max Scherzer is one.  Greinke might be another, however his team traded him and had to eat money.  

Well then most people are wrong. Long term SP deals DO work out. It may be rare but it does happen. There are plenty of one year deals that work out too. I think he was just trying to justify this ORGs failure.  If someone types that something NEVER happens when it does in fact happen, they need to learn the definition of words they type.

[mmc]

21 minutes ago, azmancini said:

This is not going to be a popular take,  but I believe they need to consider trading Ohtani. Really!  As much as I like him, I also think he is somewhat of a distraction and I have a sick feeling that he’ll be fragile as he matures.  Hell, the Jays for example would likely  give up some of their premium talent to land Ohtani even though he is still recovering given their fan base demographic and the marketing revenue he would generate among other things.

 

[wopphil]

Dont forget about Starsburg. No way he doesnt opt out.

The Angels need three starting pitchers from outside the organization. One definitely won't cut it, and I am not sure two will either. Seeing as how they cant afford to sign three starters, they should aim to sign a top of the rotation guy (Cole or Strasburg) and a mid rotation guy (Odorizi), and then trade for a cost controllable guy like Boyd.

[Jay]

If I had to bet I wouldn't bet that Ohtani is going to be a 20-game winner for the Angels.

 

[totdprods]

Just now, Jay said:

If I had to bet I wouldn't bet that Ohtani is going to be a 20-game winner for the Angels.

To me, he doesn’t need to be, if he’s also clubbing 20 HR and a .850-.900 OPS in 300-400 PA every year.

I’d be thrilled with something like 20-25 GS, 120-150 IP, 3.00/3.50 ERA plus the offense. 

[Stradling]

5 minutes ago, wopphil said:

Dont forget about Starsburg. No way he doesnt opt out.

The Angels need three starting pitchers from outside the organization. One definitely won't cut it, and I am not sure two will either. Seeing as how they cant afford to sign three starters, they should aim to sign a top of the rotation guy (Cole or Strasburg) and a mid rotation guy (Odorizi), and then trade for a cost controllable guy like Boyd.

Wow, I thought for sure Strasburg would not opt out.  

[m0nkey]

1 minute ago, totdprods said:

To me, he doesn’t need to be, if he’s also clubbing 20 HR and a .850-.900 OPS in 300-400 PA every year.

I’d be thrilled with something like 20-25 GS, 120-150 IP, 3.00/3.50 ERA plus the offense. 

Let's hope it's the pre-all star break offense vs. the post-all star break offense

[totdprods]

5 minutes ago, wopphil said:

Dont forget about Starsburg. No way he doesnt opt out.

The Angels need three starting pitchers from outside the organization. One definitely won't cut it, and I am not sure two will either. Seeing as how they cant afford to sign three starters, they should aim to sign a top of the rotation guy (Cole or Strasburg) and a mid rotation guy (Odorizi), and then trade for a cost controllable guy like Boyd.

I believe Strasburg can opt out either of the next two offseasons; his 2020 salary is $25m, and then in 2021 it goes back down to $15m. 

I’d bet he waits one more year - and next year, with Cozart, possibly Simmons coming off the books, Bert a year away, and one more year of development in the books for Adell, Rengifo, Thaiss, Ward, Suarez, Sandoval, Canning, etc., to me it makes more sense to pause on the ‘sign two FA SP’ plan and just get one this year, see what happens, and sign a second next year. Bauer, Ray, Stroman, Paxton, Minor, all hit FA too. 

[Jay]

1 minute ago, totdprods said:

To me, he doesn’t need to be, if he’s also clubbing 20 HR and a .850-.900 OPS in 300-400 PA every year.

I’d be thrilled with something like 20-25 GS, 120-150 IP, 3.00/3.50 ERA plus the offense. 

Yeah, if you're thinking about Ohtani being a solid #3-4 and getting above-average offense then that would be great.

Hope for the best.

 

[UndertheHalo]

I read the two articles and like the first 3 pages of this thread.  

I don’t think either article said anything particularly unfair.  There’s been some debate about Epplers FA track record.  I’m not really sure why.  The track record is bad.  He’s a made a few nice moves.  But when he’s spent money, mostly it’s been a train wreck.  Arguing that valid point is dumb.  So Eppler absolutely has to show something this offseason.  And so does Arte.  The idea that the team will be mired in mediocrity again next season.  Wasting Mile Trout in his 20’s yet again is so miserable that I hardly want to even consider it.  I’m a fan. I’ve been patient for a long time.  I don’t give a shit about excuses anymore.  I’ve said that I don’t expect them to win the division.  But I do expect that the team succeeds in bringing in the players they obviously need.  And I do expect to give a shit about baseball next September.  I don’t feel like pretending that the team just has too many holes to fill to be a fun team to follow.  This team is not fun.  And it hasn’t been.   I’ve had enough of that.  Spend the money to make your possibly GOAT player be involved in important games.  Or please shut the fu*ck forever about the #haloway and how the team doesn’t tank or how the team expects to be a top organization.  

The team needs upper rotation pitchers and the team needs another effective power hitter.  If you’re serious about making deep October playoff runs.  You have to think about how you’re going to beat the Yankees and Astros and Red Sox and Twins and even the A’s and Indians.  A few effective moves to address obvious needs puts the Angels there.  But they have to spend the money and they have to be bold.  I think they should seriously explore trading Simmons.  He’s probably damaged his value quite bit but he may still command a solid return.  It’s somethi g the team should explore.  I don’t think the team should give him more then a 3 year contract.  I don’t think any baseball team should hand out huge commitments to any player with offensive prowess as speculative as Andreltons.  I love the guy but it is what it is.  David Fletcher plays a great SS.  The bat is important.  A spectre of a post 20’s sub 100 OPS + or wRC+ with this guy is a real one.  And to give him a big contract is a huge risk. And with Fletcher and Rengifo it’s not a risk the Angels need to take.  Anyway.  We’ll see.  I’m really looking forward to this winter and I’m enthusiastic that we’ll all be excited this spring.  

But if not, I mean I’ve had enough of failure.  Get new guys in there.  Sorry Billy. 

Edited September 5, 2019 by UndertheHalo

[ten ocho recon scout]

11 hours ago, Calzone 2 said:

So if we sign Cole and win 85 games (4 games above .500) next year but still miss the playoffs, will everyone here be jumping for joy? 

When I pointed that about the yankees in the other thread, your take was how much smarter the yankees were than us.

Is it different here? Besides the obvious "the yankees have higher standards"? 

Because if this team wins 85 games next year, and 84 the following, they would be on track to where the yankees are today in like 3 years.

[ten ocho recon scout]

The reality is, the eppler report card is still a few years out. Even if hes gone in a year, we wont really know if he was "right" for a few more seasons.

Trout continues his GOAT career, and Adell works out, etc etc. His plan worked. Even if hes a distant memory when it happens.

Adell is a bust, none of the rest of the farm comes around, etc his plan was a complete failure.

But that wont be known this winter. We still feel the ripples from the dipoto era today. As well as Reagins. 

Eppler doesnt get the excuse forever, but people also seem to be getting shorter and shorter memories. You inherit a burned down building from your parents, youre not going to turn it into a curb appeal property in the same amount of time as the building next door that just needed new carpet.

[Troll Daddy]

Pitching is the Angels #1 priority ... but let’s not forget the offense. 

[Claude]

6 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

Pitching is the Angels #1 priority ... but let’s not forget the offense. 

Goodwin is the Angels second best hitter right now. 

[Jeff Fletcher]

14 hours ago, floplag said:

If we had gotten 2 actual pitchers

They tried to get a bunch of guys, some of whom ended up being worse deals than Harvey and Cahill (like Happ and Eovaldi).

Transactions are 2 sided. You can pick who you want but he’s got to pick you too.

Essentially Eppler decided that if he couldn’t get the pitchers he wanted, he was better off waiting till next year (ie this winter).

[Inside Pitch]

5 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

Essentially Eppler decided that if he couldn’t get the pitchers he wanted, he was better off waiting till next year (ie this winter).

But...

[mulwin444]

6 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

They tried to get a bunch of guys, some of whom ended up being worse deals than Harvey and Cahill (like Happ and Eovaldi).

Transactions are 2 sided. You can pick who you want but he’s got to pick you too.

Essentially Eppler decided that if he couldn’t get the pitchers he wanted, he was better off waiting till next year (ie this winter).

I think once Corbin was not an option, the choices became less certain.  Sure, signing one of those guys would have "looked good" for those following the Angels but it appears they would have been an expensive IL candidate or pitching with over a 4.50 ERA.  

Now, this offseason, besides Cole, you also have Bumbarner, Wheeler, Ryu, Ordorizzi, and possibly Strasburg if he opts out.  Then maybe you can get a shorter term deal with guys like Hamels, Kyle Gibson, or Roark.  Obviously, very few sure things here but seems odds are greater you'll more for your money.

[nate]

6 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

They tried to get a bunch of guys, some of whom ended up being worse deals than Harvey and Cahill (like Happ and Eovaldi).

Transactions are 2 sided. You can pick who you want but he’s got to pick you too.

Essentially Eppler decided that if he couldn’t get the pitchers he wanted, he was better off waiting till next year (ie this winter).

Which is much better than panicking and spending a ton on a second tier option.  IMO.

[Docwaukee]

7 hours ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

They tried to get a bunch of guys, some of whom ended up being worse deals than Harvey and Cahill (like Happ and Eovaldi).

Transactions are 2 sided. You can pick who you want but he’s got to pick you too.

Essentially Eppler decided that if he couldn’t get the pitchers he wanted, he was better off waiting till next year (ie this winter).

my guess is they'd have not signed Allen if they went after Happ and Eovaldi.  

Happ has an era above 5 and Eovaldi above 6.  They're each owned 17m in 2020.  

They'd actually have almost no money  to spend this off season and if they had signed eovaldi who owed that 17m over the next three after this year, they might not be able to afford Cole.  What a disaster that would have been.