Rumor Central: Angels preferred destination for Mike Moustakas?

[HaloNArizona]

I like Mous at 3B, even if it does cost a #2 pick.  

My question is what value, if any does CJ have.  Everybody wants to ditch him at 1B.  He would be a player with no position for the Angels.  What could we get in return?

[Hubs]

Normally I agree with Scotty on most things. This however, is a 180 degree disagreement. 

Mike Moustakas just turned 29 years old. He is a classic late bloomer. He took about three years at the major league level to find his bat, and then in 2015, he did. In that year he hit to a .348 OBP, with  43 walks versus 76 SO. In 2016, he missed major time due to injury but then last year also had a tremendous year with the bat, helping to carry a weaker Royals team. 

His BABIP isn't high, but he put the ball into play often, as he only walked or struck out between 128 and 119 times in the 2015 and 2017 seasons. He had around 600 plate appearances both years, so he'd basically put the ball into play 4 out of 5 times up. He is a lefty power hitter who puts the ball in play. Something we don't have. 

Power. Lineup Balance. Gold-Glove caliber defense.

If he signs for 5/85, I'd be all over it. The second round pick could be one you mentioned, or it could be Hunter Green. You don't know what you are getting prospect wise, so you have to occasionally go for it with free agents. 

The Angels 3B since Troy Glaus left in Free Agency to year have been:

2017 - Escobar / Valbuena

2016 - Escobar

2015 - Freese

2014 - Freese

2011-2013 Callaspo

2010 - Many different players

2007-2009 - Figgins

2006 - Macier Izturis

2005 - Quinlan / Mcphereson

Last time the Angels had a 30 HR hitting 3B from either side of the plate? 2002 - Troy Glaus.

[DMVol]

5 minutes ago, HaloNArizona said:

My question is what value, if any does CJ have.  Everybody wants to ditch him at 1B.  He would be a player with no position for the Angels.  What could we get in return?

Not much.....I think we shopped him last winter and there wasn't much of a market....and that was after a good year in 2016.

[Erstad Grit]

3 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Normally I agree with Scotty on most things. This however, is a 180 degree disagreement. 

Mike Moustakas just turned 29 years old. He is a classic late bloomer. He took about three years at the major league level to find his bat, and then in 2015, he did. In that year he hit to a .348 OBP, with  43 walks versus 76 SO. In 2016, he missed major time due to injury but then last year also had a tremendous year with the bat, helping to carry a weaker Royals team. 

His BABIP isn't high, but he put the ball into play often, as he only walked or struck out between 128 and 119 times in the 2015 and 2017 seasons. He had around 600 plate appearances both years, so he'd basically put the ball into play 4 out of 5 times up. He is a lefty power hitter who puts the ball in play. Something we don't have. 

Power. Lineup Balance. Gold-Glove caliber defense.

If he signs for 5/85, I'd be all over it. The second round pick could be one you mentioned, or it could be Hunter Green. You don't know what you are getting prospect wise, so you have to occasionally go for it with free agents. 

The Angels 3B since Troy Glaus left in Free Agency to year have been:

2017 - Escobar / Valbuena

2016 - Escobar

2015 - Freese

2014 - Freese

2011-2013 Callaspo

2010 - Many different players

2007-2009 - Figgins

2006 - Macier Izturis

2005 - Quinlan / Mcphereson

Last time the Angels had a 30 HR hitting 3B from either side of the plate? 2002 - Troy Glaus.

Figgins was amazing, albeit with no power. 

Farmer Shea was good times. 

I don't get it. 3B with power and some are not on board. Maybe I'm just too 90's and chick dig the long ball. 

[Erstad Grit]

14 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Normally I agree with Scotty on most things. This however, is a 180 degree disagreement. 

Mike Moustakas just turned 29 years old. He is a classic late bloomer. He took about three years at the major league level to find his bat, and then in 2015, he did. In that year he hit to a .348 OBP, with  43 walks versus 76 SO. In 2016, he missed major time due to injury but then last year also had a tremendous year with the bat, helping to carry a weaker Royals team. 

His BABIP isn't high, but he put the ball into play often, as he only walked or struck out between 128 and 119 times in the 2015 and 2017 seasons. He had around 600 plate appearances both years, so he'd basically put the ball into play 4 out of 5 times up. He is a lefty power hitter who puts the ball in play. Something we don't have. 

Power. Lineup Balance. Gold-Glove caliber defense.

If he signs for 5/85, I'd be all over it. The second round pick could be one you mentioned, or it could be Hunter Green. You don't know what you are getting prospect wise, so you have to occasionally go for it with free agents. 

The Angels 3B since Troy Glaus left in Free Agency to year have been:

2017 - Escobar / Valbuena

2016 - Escobar

2015 - Freese

2014 - Freese

2011-2013 Callaspo

2010 - Many different players

2007-2009 - Figgins

2006 - Macier Izturis

2005 - Quinlan / Mcphereson

Last time the Angels had a 30 HR hitting 3B from either side of the plate? 2002 - Troy Glaus.

And to be fair.....Escobar/Valbuena combo hit 29 HR last year

[tdawg87]

5 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Power. Lineup Balance. Gold-Glove caliber defense

Before this past year, he was basically a Valbuena clone. The 38 homeruns in a contract year when the balls are juiced screams fluke to me. Not to mention, Angels Stadium is where LHH go to die. He's not hitting 30+ homers with the Angels.

Defensively, he's an upgrade over Valbuena for sure but "gold glove caliber" is a stretch considering he's never won a GG and the stats point to him being an average-to slightly above average third baseman. Good arm, glove of stone, moderate range. 

[eaterfan]

8 minutes ago, Erstad Grit said:

Figgins was amazing, albeit with no power. 

Farmer Shea was good times. 

I don't get it. 3B with power and some are not on board. Maybe I'm just too 90's and chick dig the long ball. 

The man has hit 25+ HRs once in his career, he's put up an OBP over .320 once in his career, and he's slightly above replacement level defensively. I don't understand what there is to be excited about.

[tdawg87]

1 minute ago, eaterfan said:

The man has hit 25+ HRs once in his career, he's put up an OBP over .320 once in his career, and he's slightly above replacement level defensively. I don't understand what there is to be excited about.

His career OBP is lower than Valbuena.

[ettin]

2 hours ago, Deek said:

Yeah... that .310 OBP is a killer...

The killer is that Scott Boras is his agent and I have a strong feeling that SB is on Moreno's permanent shit list. Could be totally wrong but whatever Boras did it may be unforgivable.

[Hubs]

Yeah, I guess we're looking at different Mike Moustakas's. 

I see a left handed power hitting third baseman in his prime, who didn't have success in his first three years, but has in two of the last three. The other year was cancelled by injury. 

 

 

 

[Second Base]

16 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Normally I agree with Scotty on most things. This however, is a 180 degree disagreement. 

Mike Moustakas just turned 29 years old. He is a classic late bloomer. He took about three years at the major league level to find his bat, and then in 2015, he did. In that year he hit to a .348 OBP, with  43 walks versus 76 SO. In 2016, he missed major time due to injury but then last year also had a tremendous year with the bat, helping to carry a weaker Royals team. 

His BABIP isn't high, but he put the ball into play often, as he only walked or struck out between 128 and 119 times in the 2015 and 2017 seasons. He had around 600 plate appearances both years, so he'd basically put the ball into play 4 out of 5 times up. He is a lefty power hitter who puts the ball in play. Something we don't have. 

Power. Lineup Balance. Gold-Glove caliber defense.

If he signs for 5/85, I'd be all over it. The second round pick could be one you mentioned, or it could be Hunter Green. You don't know what you are getting prospect wise, so you have to occasionally go for it with free agents. 

The Angels 3B since Troy Glaus left in Free Agency to year have been:

2017 - Escobar / Valbuena

2016 - Escobar

2015 - Freese

2014 - Freese

2011-2013 Callaspo

2010 - Many different players

2007-2009 - Figgins

2006 - Macier Izturis

2005 - Quinlan / Mcphereson

Last time the Angels had a 30 HR hitting 3B from either side of the plate? 2002 - Troy Glaus.

Again, good player, but not the best investment we can make.

[eaterfan]

5 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Yeah, I guess we're looking at different Mike Moustakas's. 

I see a left handed power hitting third baseman in his prime, who didn't have success in his first three years, but has in two of the last three. The other year was cancelled by injury. 

 

 

 

The newer studies are showing that the prime may actually be from 26-28 instead of the 28-30 that was previously thought. His underlying numbers are troubling and even his last three years his OBPs are:

.348

.301

.314

If that's learning how to hit, then we're in some trouble. And the year before that if you want his last 3 full seasons was .271.

That being said, I'm not opposed to a short term low money deal (3-$36, or so).

[ten ocho recon scout]

21 minutes ago, Scotty@AW said:

Again, good player, but not the best investment we can make.

This is my take. If we were to sign him, id be pleased that we have 3B "solved" for a few years at least, a LH bat, another power threat. But dude has warts.

It really all depends on our other plans this year, and next year...

[vladdy#27]

What scares me the most about Moustakas is that defense is supposed to be his best assist, but that has declined every year since he has been in the major leagues. And a year after having knee surgery it was at an all time career worst. 

2012: UZR 15.8 DRS 14

2013: UZR 7.6 DRS -3

2014: UZR 2.6 DRS -2

2015: UZR 1.5 DRS 4

2016: Injured (only played 26 games)

2017: UZR -3.1 DRS -8

While I posted yesterday that a safe contract for the Angels that’s also relatively fair would be 4 years/60M, with an option 5th year, and with an opt out. A guy that is a question mark offensively and a question mark defensively is a player that the Angels should pass on. We can upgrade in other areas that are a bit safer.

[Hubs]

Zach Cozart and Moustakas is my preferred course of action. I acknowledge the injury risk, but I also like the potential. Neither will be huge deals, Moustakas signs somewhere between 5/70 and 6/108, with it being more likely towards the bottom of that range.

I'd like Eric Hosmer or Carlos Santana too, but unlike at 2nd and 3rd, the Angels have a semi-competant 1B, and can always play Calhoun there too, if they decide they need to get a leadoff type outfielder instead. 

[UndertheHalo]

Honestly, in a vacuum it seems like it would be best to pass on Moustakas.  The reality is that the Angels don’t really have better options.  I don’t think any of us wants to hand Valbuena the 3B job.  Valbuena seems best used as an insurance policy for Cron.  Moustakas is a younger player relatively for a FA.  Which hopefully gives us a chance to develop internal options.  There’s no doubt that the guy has his positives.  I believe he’d be our best 3B by a good margin since Troy Glaus.  You have to operate in the environment as it is.  3B is a problem and this solves it multi year.  

It seems to me that if the deal is reasonable.  60/4 or something around that.  They almost have to do it if Arte is green lighting it.   It’s worth the risk.  And I don’t buy that we can’t have a good or even great draft with out our 2nd pick.  I’m sick of failure from our scouting.  Fucking do the job.  Find players. 

[ettin]

4 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

Honestly, in a vacuum it seems like it would be best to pass on Moustakas.  The reality is that the Angels don’t really have better options.  I don’t think any of us wants to hand Valbuena the 3B job.  Valbuena seems best used as an insurance policy for Cron.  Moustakas is a younger player relatively for a FA.  Which hopefully gives us a chance to develop internal options.  There’s no doubt that the guy has his positives.  I believe he’d be our best 3B by a good margin since Troy Glaus.  You have to operate in the environment as it is.  3B is a problem and this solves it multi year.  

It seems to me that if the deal is reasonable.  60/4 or something around that.  They almost have to do it if Arte is green lighting it.   It’s worth the risk.  And I don’t buy that we can’t have a good or even great draft with out our 2nd pick.  I’m sick of failure from our scouting.  Fucking do the job.  Find players. 

I think many of you will find the upcoming Corner Infield part of the Primer Series interesting. It may open your eyes to the possibilities more likely available from a value perspective (bang for the buck).

[eaterfan]

10 minutes ago, UndertheHalo said:

Honestly, in a vacuum it seems like it would be best to pass on Moustakas.  The reality is that the Angels don’t really have better options.  I don’t think any of us wants to hand Valbuena the 3B job.  Valbuena seems best used as an insurance policy for Cron.  Moustakas is a younger player relatively for a FA.  Which hopefully gives us a chance to develop internal options.  There’s no doubt that the guy has his positives.  I believe he’d be our best 3B by a good margin since Troy Glaus.  You have to operate in the environment as it is.  3B is a problem and this solves it multi year.  

It seems to me that if the deal is reasonable.  60/4 or something around that.  They almost have to do it if Arte is green lighting it.   It’s worth the risk.  And I don’t buy that we can’t have a good or even great draft with out our 2nd pick.  I’m sick of failure from our scouting.  Fucking do the job.  Find players. 

I don't understand this. If the guy isn't the answer then committing to him long term isn't a solution to the third base problem. There are guys out there who are lower ceiling players but won't require the commitment that Mous will. If he isn't the answer, as you seem to believe then why not leave yourself with more options to fix it down the road before Trout's contact is up?

[UndertheHalo]

29 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

I don't understand this. If the guy isn't the answer then committing to him long term isn't a solution to the third base problem. There are guys out there who are lower ceiling players but won't require the commitment that Mous will. If he isn't the answer, as you seem to believe then why not leave yourself with more options to fix it down the road before Trout's contact is up?

You misunderstand, I’m saying he could be the answer albeit an imperfect one.

Edited November 16, 2017 by UndertheHalo

[Hubs]

Ok, So the Angels aren't signing Manny Machado or Josh Donaldson in a year. Those guys are going to cost what Trout and Pujols do. 

Moustakas is the top free agent at 3B this offseason.

I'd like to see them try to address 3B this offseason instead of having a virtual black hole there along with one at 2B. 

We need offense, Moustakas will provide it, and may have a great year with a solid offensive team around him. And Kauffman isn't exactly a homer prone stadium, like Arizona or Colorado or Texas. More importantly, I think this may push Pujols to 5th or 6th, depending on what they do at 1st base. With Moustakas and Cozart or another leadoff friendly 2B option, the lineup would look much more complete.

Upton was a good first step, but I want two more solid bats preferably at 2nd and 3rd. And If they can get a solid bat at 1st too, I'm all for it.

[gurn67]

3 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

How reliable is that power number going forward?

If I offered you an over/under of 31 on hr for him in 2018 as an Angel what would you take?

Considering the way most of the Angels' acquisitions tank, I'd have trouble with an over/under of 21. He had one hot streak last summer. Look at his overall track record. He's a 15-25 homer guy with a .270 to .310 OBP.

Last 54 games last season he drove in 16 runs knowing he was going into his free agency year.

Pass.

[gurn67]

3 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

How reliable is that power number going forward?

If I offered you an over/under of 31 on hr for him in 2018 as an Angel what would you take?

Considering the way most of the Angels' acquisitions tank, I'd have trouble with an over/under of 21. He had one hot streak last summer. Look at his overall track record. He's a 15-25 homer guy with a .270 to .310 OBP.

Last 54 games last season he drove in 16 runs knowing he was going into his free agency year.

Pass.

[WeaverFever]

6 minutes ago, Hubs said:

Ok, So the Angels aren't signing Manny Machado or Josh Donaldson in a year. Those guys are going to cost what Trout and Pujols do. 

Moustakas is the top free agent at 3B this offseason.

I'd like to see them try to address 3B this offseason instead of having a virtual black hole there along with one at 2B. 

We need offense, Moustakas will provide it, and may have a great year with a solid offensive team around him. And Kauffman isn't exactly a homer prone stadium, like Arizona or Colorado or Texas. More importantly, I think this may push Pujols to 5th or 6th, depending on what they do at 1st base. With Moustakas and Cozart or another leadoff friendly 2B option, the lineup would look much more complete.

Upton was a good first step, but I want two more solid bats preferably at 2nd and 3rd. And If they can get a solid bat at 1st too, I'm all for it.

It’s almost like people fault Arte for spending money, and fault him if he doesn’t. Lose, Lose situation here.. Moose would be a great addition to the ball club, that solidifies the middle of our lineup, and the gaping hole we had at 3rd for 10+ years, for a fraction of the price of a Machado or Arenado. 

[totdprods]

For Moose, it's really going to come down to two things we as fans will not know; 1) his cost and 2) the internal big picture. 

No, he isn't worth a huge contract. He may not even be worth a middling contract. There is a value that can be placed on having a level of positional stability though, and even if Moustakas hovers at a fairly average .265/.320/.425/.745 type with 15 HRs and 1-2 WAR a season, it checks off 3B for the foreseeable future. Last time I checked, we ain't got shit in the minors for 3B, at least no one that can't reasonably be deployed at another position should they make the bigs (Rojas, Fletcher, Rivas, Houchins, Williams, and some of those are both stretches and far off) and by taking that position off the board for 2-3 years before it becomes an issue again allows the org the opportunity to focus more effort, money, resources, brain power into the tougher, more uncertain decisions (very theoretically, i.e., when does Jones' upside make it worth booting Calhoun's steady production or a scenario more current, when does a LoMo or Alonso become a worthwhile investment over Cron) which helps me segue into the big picture...by securing 3B at a fixed cost, it enables Eppler to stick to a rough plan on how to use his farm system; keep building a stash of OFs (where we're pretty well set in the 'big picture' by current contracts and our prospect wealth) and pull from that well when making trades to fill holes, or draft heavy on infielders to eventually replace the stopgap FA purchases he makes now, or continue drafting heavy on pitching (as it's always expensive) and rely on that depth again for trade currency or as a cheap pool of talent to stock the staff while you keep spending for stopgap IF options until it works out. 

Something along the lines of a 4/$60m still feels fair for both parties. It's selling Moose's potential short, but hey, we don't really need him and we don't need to pay him his top value for him to be worth it for us. We can pay him like a league average everyday player (a little more for potential upside) and at worst, get league average production and not be totally raked over in the deal. Eppler would certainly have to find a great value option at 2B though, and probably needs to invest in something safer at 1B too, just for the immediate sake of the team.

[Vlad27Trout27]

1 hour ago, Hubs said:

Normally I agree with Scotty on most things. This however, is a 180 degree disagreement. 

Mike Moustakas just turned 29 years old. He is a classic late bloomer. He took about three years at the major league level to find his bat, and then in 2015, he did. In that year he hit to a .348 OBP, with  43 walks versus 76 SO. In 2016, he missed major time due to injury but then last year also had a tremendous year with the bat, helping to carry a weaker Royals team. 

His BABIP isn't high, but he put the ball into play often, as he only walked or struck out between 128 and 119 times in the 2015 and 2017 seasons. He had around 600 plate appearances both years, so he'd basically put the ball into play 4 out of 5 times up. He is a lefty power hitter who puts the ball in play. Something we don't have. 

Power. Lineup Balance. Gold-Glove caliber defense.

If he signs for 5/85, I'd be all over it. The second round pick could be one you mentioned, or it could be Hunter Green. You don't know what you are getting prospect wise, so you have to occasionally go for it with free agents. 

The Angels 3B since Troy Glaus left in Free Agency to year have been:

2017 - Escobar / Valbuena

2016 - Escobar

2015 - Freese

2014 - Freese

2011-2013 Callaspo

2010 - Many different players

2007-2009 - Figgins

2006 - Macier Izturis

2005 - Quinlan / Mcphereson

Last time the Angels had a 30 HR hitting 3B from either side of the plate? 2002 - Troy Glaus.

If we have to spend 5/ 85 on him, i'd rather just wait another year and check on Machado or Donalson. But if his price goes down to maybe 4/44-50 mil i'd consider it. I've said this before but i see a thin market for him including his skill set and QA.,