You don't rebuild with the best player in the game...

[Troll Daddy]

Something something about DNA

[AngelsLakersFan]

4 hours ago, bloodbrother said:

Here's the problem....all the things you wanted to see this team do are the things they did in prior years and it ended up as a bust. They are paying the consequences of those actions now. Hard to improve when you are losing draft picks from bust FA signings AND drafting poorly. You can't spend big money on every position and the Halos don't have the prospects to fill spots

 

The problem is the poor drafting. How many players have they drafted in the last 7 years that have had an impact on the organization?

Their FA signings have not worked out, and they have wasted money when they didn't have to. That said, if they can't draft well then their ONLY option is to spend well. Not spending is the equivalent to not trying.

[Ohtaniland]

52 minutes ago, floplag said:

Right now its our only option to improve in the next few years, either spend, or trade Trout.  I would rather spend.  If they dont want to do that well... 

What if they do both. Sign the best free agents available and trade Trout for a boatload of talent or top prospects with the agreement that they must also take Pujols in the deal. 

[beatlesrule]

25 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

What if they do both. Sign the best free agents available and trade Trout for a boatload of talent or top prospects with the agreement that they must also take Pujols in the deal. 

Pujols has a no trade clause.

[tdawg87]

2 hours ago, Stradling said:

It's a bad contract.  It's far from a boat anchor for Arte.  After this season the Angels have roughly $70 million to spend without hitting the tax.  The team makes $200 million a year before selling a single ticket, hot dog or jersey.  He's capable of going over the tax.  Let's see if he will. 

They only have about 45 million to spend this offseason. But your point still remains.

[Ohtaniland]

22 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

Pujols has a no trade clause.

Yes and so does Trout. They both have 100% control of their futures and the Angels have to accept whatever they decide to do.

 

[arch stanton]

I prefer to think that by the time Trout actually has to worry about where he wants to go he'll be surrounded by quality free agent signees, young talent coming out of the farm to fill holes or become trade chips, his buddy GR reaping the benefits of an organization that stood by him and gave him the opportunity to become a stud pitcher, and he'll decide this is a great place to spend the decade of the '20's.

[bloodbrother]

3 hours ago, floplag said:

Agreed, but the presence of Trout changes it.  Lets be real if he was ANYONE else, literally anyone, we would all be willing to trade him.  But noone is for various reasons.  I'm not either but if we arent going to win with him what the point of having him when we could restock in one day if we did as opposed to the years its going to take otehwise.  

We cant just say "well it didnt work out in the past" and do nothing.  

Right now its our only option to improve in the next few years, either spend, or trade Trout.  I would rather spend.  If they dont want to do that well... 

Unfortunately, the past few seasons have made it abundantly clear for Halos fans that Arte isn't willing to spend over the luxury tax. Luckily, with Hamilton's contract finally off the books, we can expect the team to be a bit more aggressive in FA this upcoming winter, but we now know what the limit is for this squad when it comes to their payroll

[Angel Oracle]

10 hours ago, tdawg87 said:

They only have about 45 million to spend this offseason. But your point still remains.

Different amounts have come up regarding available AAV payroll.

It all depends on who they keep from the expiring contracts.

Hackilton, Street, and the just DFA'd Espinohitsa are the givens to be let go.   That is about $40 million.

That leaves Chavez, Escobar, Pennington, Maybin, Revere, Nolasco, Norris, Petit, and Hernandez.   That's close to $40 million additional AAV salary.

[tdawg87]

Right, but the salary is counted at the end of the year and includes bonuses, travel expenses, insurance etc.... which adds an extra 15-20 million above the actual payroll. 

Even with all those players leaving, the projected payroll for 2018 is somewhere around 150 million, which includes raises and bonuses and everything else. 

[floplag]

12 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

The problem is the poor drafting. How many players have they drafted in the last 7 years that have had an impact on the organization?

Their FA signings have not worked out, and they have wasted money when they didn't have to. That said, if they can't draft well then their ONLY option is to spend well. Not spending is the equivalent to not trying.

So much this... and yet everyone has faith that they will do so now?  WE were all just as hyped over the guys that have come up and failed as we are the most recent crop of draftees.
i've never put much stock in prospects as a solution, maybe 1 in 5 actually pans out at the ML level and even less become stars as opposed to solid MLers.  And you have to wait like 5 years to know.  
As a fan of this club i dont want to throw away the prime years of the bet player in the game, waiting for this to happen. 

[AngelsFanSince86]

19 hours ago, floplag said:

Quantity over quality i would argue.  no matter, it doesnt matter im not trying to argue the past, im just saying that we will see where they are in terms of the future pretty quick

I read most of the first page, but then just scanned your responses.  You have been asked several times who you would have chosen?  Who would you have signed?  Angels went with quantity over quality for guys who have had success in the past and so far it hasn't really worked out.  However, they didn't sink much money into them as a whole.  Almost all of the big FAs that, at the time, everyone thought could make a difference have all way underperformed.  I know two years ago I was one of the biggest proponents of trying to sign Heyward because of his value at the time and potential as he entered his prime.  How did that work out?  

I'm curious what your hindsight plan is?  You've criticized what they did and stated what they should have done, but you only have spoken in generalities.  What specifically should they have done that would have made you a happier fan today?

[ScruffytheJanitor]

11 minutes ago, AngelsFanSince86 said:

I read most of the first page, but then just scanned your responses.  You have been asked several times who you would have chosen?  Who would you have signed?  Angels went with quantity over quality for guys who have had success in the past and so far it hasn't really worked out.  However, they didn't sink much money into them as a whole.  Almost all of the big FAs that, at the time, everyone thought could make a difference have all way underperformed.  I know two years ago I was one of the biggest proponents of trying to sign Heyward because of his value at the time and potential as he entered his prime.  How did that work out?  

I'm curious what your hindsight plan is?  You've criticized what they did and stated what they should have done, but you only have spoken in generalities.  What specifically should they have done that would have made you a happier fan today?

 

Trade Brandon Wood, Santana, and Kendrick in order to get Miguel Cabrera. 

[floplag]

2 hours ago, AngelsFanSince86 said:

I read most of the first page, but then just scanned your responses.  You have been asked several times who you would have chosen?  Who would you have signed?  Angels went with quantity over quality for guys who have had success in the past and so far it hasn't really worked out.  However, they didn't sink much money into them as a whole.  Almost all of the big FAs that, at the time, everyone thought could make a difference have all way underperformed.  I know two years ago I was one of the biggest proponents of trying to sign Heyward because of his value at the time and potential as he entered his prime.  How did that work out?  

I'm curious what your hindsight plan is?  You've criticized what they did and stated what they should have done, but you only have spoken in generalities.  What specifically should they have done that would have made you a happier fan today?

Does it matter?  No matter who I list the responses arent really going to change and i dont want to debate each on on its merit or failure all over again.  
That having been said i thought we should have moved on a few guys like Cespedes for example.  But its moot at this point. 
Bottom line, its going forward that im looking at now, and seeing us linked to Gordon for example gave me some hope... though i doubt we can swing the deal aside from a pure salary dump. 

[Ohtaniland]

1 hour ago, floplag said:

Does it matter?  No matter who I list the responses arent really going to change and i dont want to debate each on on its merit or failure all over again.  
That having been said i thought we should have moved on a few guys like Cespedes for example.  But its moot at this point. 
Bottom line, its going forward that im looking at now, and seeing us linked to Gordon for example gave me some hope... though i doubt we can swing the deal aside from a pure salary dump. 

You can thank Albert, Josh and CJ for the failure to compete during the Trout years. They brought Arte and the fans false hope. 

[Lou]

2 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

You can thank Albert, Josh and CJ for the failure to compete during the Trout years. They brought Arte and the fans false hope. 

It was a lot more than that 

[Adam]

On 7/16/2017 at 9:59 AM, floplag said:

I've grown increasingly frustrated with the clubs general blase attitude towards actually making an effort to win while we have Trout on the roster.  I've not been around much because frankly i havent had anything good to say, but with the recent rumors i figured id step back into the fray.   

I get it, they were snakebit etc... over Hackilton and are way overpaying for Pujols, but you cant use Pujols as an excuse cause we all knew that was going to be the case. 
The rest of the bad money is falling off... its time to step up.  

We are not a second rate team, or shouldn't be, money shouldn't be an issue luxury tax or no... so why have we gone dumpster diving for the better part of the last 2-3 years?  I have never understood that.  Why do you throw away 2-3 years of the best player on the planet over a bad deal or two.. jesus eat it and move on.  I know its not my money but if you really want to get technical it isnt Artes either, the TV deal is covering those expenses.  The club is one of the top 50 valued franchises per Forbes so... yeah, money excuses are BS in my book. 

I still care far more about the name on the front of the jersey than the back, so while i 100% appreciate Trout, i would trade him if i thought it would legit make the club better... the problem is that right now i dont think it would.  I have in the past suggested we should be open to it, and i still feel thats the case, but i think it makes far more sense to build around him at this point.

No team is going to survive the run of injuries weve had to the pitching staff, but they have managed to hang on in what might be Svens best season actually managing the ballclub, which is hard for me to say as ive advocated replacing him.  But... i dont think pitching has been our problem, its the offense.  

The core is solid if unspectacular... buti really have nothing bad to say about Trout, Calhoun, Maybin, Escobar, Simmons.. even Maldonada has done very well behind the plate, and Pujols will be the #1 DH regardless, but the revolving door train wreck on the right side has got to stop. 

I know im not saying anything that most of you reading this dont know... but i was encouraged last week to hear we were in on Gordon..which might mean precisely dick as i dont know what we could possibly trade to make that happen.. but the idea that they were at least kicking that tire on a guy that really makes a ton of sense in our lineup prompted me to come out of hiding. 

I agree. The Angels should get Judge, Harper, Rizzo, Altuve and the Dodgers' pitching staff and stop messing around. 

[Lou]

Just now, Adam said:

I agree. The Angels should get Judge, Harper, Rizzo, Altuve and the Dodgers' pitching staff and stop messing around. 

But we'd almost certainly have to give up Cron and Revere, and that's a deal breaker 

[Ohtaniland]

2 minutes ago, Lou said:

It was a lot more than that 

They tied up a lot of money and that changed the way Arte did business with guys like Cespedes. 

[Angel Oracle]

11 minutes ago, Lou said:

It was a lot more than that 

Yep....Pujols, Hackilton, Nibs, Reagins being duped in trades, Dipeutered drafting mainly high floor prospects and firing many scouts, Clay Daniels + Dipeutered screwing up Latin American scouting and budget, Arte acting like a scout several years back, and even Bane's bad 2010 draft that failed to take advantage of 5 picks in the top 40     

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, CALZONE said:

They tied up a lot of money and that changed the way Arte did business with guys like Cespedes. 

Clod you have always been against spending big in free agency.  If we would have signed Cespedes and we didn't make it to the playoffs you'd blame him for not single handily taking us there like you have with Albert.  

[Stradling]

Sorry but I just don't understand how what we have seen the last couple years is anything other than a rebuild.  A rebuild has to start with a commitment to draft and develop, that seems to be in place.  Next would be don't cripple yourself with long contracts.  Well we haven't done that in a few years.  The next is once you have money to spend, you spend it wisely.  We will see what Eppler does this off season.  

[Angel Oracle]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Sorry but I just don't understand how what we have seen the last couple years is anything other than a rebuild.  A rebuild has to start with a commitment to draft and develop, that seems to be in place.  Next would be don't cripple yourself with long contracts.  Well we haven't done that in a few years.  The next is once you have money to spend, you spend it wisely.  We will see what Eppler does this off season.  

This is the first off-season in a while coming up, where there is a somewhat significant amount of AAV payroll space available. 

[Ohtaniland]

4 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Clod you have always been against spending big in free agency.  If we would have signed Cespedes and we didn't make it to the playoffs you'd blame him for not single handily taking us there like you have with Albert.  

The problem is that Albert is sucking up money and a very key hitting position in the middle of the order. Those things coupled with Hamilton you can not hide. They're real issues that hurt the organization. There's no way in hell that you can just excuse $50M a year and keep spending. 

[Ohtaniland]

2 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

This is the first off-season in a while coming up, where there is a somewhat significant amount of AAV payroll space available. 

That doesn't necessarily mean that Arte will choose to spend all of the loose change. He may just decide to spend only some of it and cut the budget because he has to fix the stadium or save money for Trout.