You don't rebuild with the best player in the game...

[floplag]

1 minute ago, DMVol said:

 We spent more money this past offseason than we have since Hamilton---it just hasn't paid off--Espinosa, Valbuena have been terrible, Maybin, Revere and Chavez have been pretty mediocre (although probably predictably so)....Maldanado added a little to the payroll and has been the best addition...Eppler has been really good with cheap pitching--Ramirez, Bridwell, the pen guys....

Quantity over quality i would argue.  no matter, it doesnt matter im not trying to argue the past, im just saying that we will see where they are in terms of the future pretty quick

[Stradling]

Looking at the past two free agent classes the only quality second baseman was Daniel Murphy and Zobrist, but he's turned into more of a utility guy.  The two best first baseman the last two years were Thames and Moreland.  That would have been tough guesses for first basemen.  

[The_Outrunner]

What really sucks about all this trading trout business... Is we added  big time free agents with first round picks attached to them and totally screwed our team(which should have changed the outcome) . I for the life of me can't understand how this has legitimately destroyed our team. I get the implications, but we've just never rebounded bad drafts and all that. There's been so many injuries and drama recently that just follows this team, and now our only option is to trade the best player in baseball... I think Moreno need to shit or get off the pot. Us as fans are sick of watching a team that we love perform in or around .500. I mean I'm surprised at how well we're performing with the clean peanuts we have. 

[mulwin444]

Arte needs to spend money around Trout not trade away the best player in the game.  He changed the name to reflect the Angels were supposed to be "big time" so he needs to step up

[ettin]

I wrote about this in late May of 2016:

This has never been a rebuild operation, it has always been a retool operation. A rebuild is where you sell most if not all of your assets to obtain long-term controllable prospects or players with many years of control and use 2 or more years of the MLB draft to help restock your system for a more sustainable run 2-5 years out.

The Angels have never been, nor will likely ever be, a rebuild team. We have too much payroll space and, despite the many grumblings on this board (including myself on occasion), we have always had a core group of competent players year to year even in the down years.

The injuries that hit us in 2016 decimated that year for us. Because we did not spend in free agency (turns out to have been a wise move now in hindsight) 2017 was always going to be a crapshoot in terms of our ability to compete. Eppler did a great job in assembling a rag-tag group that has gotten us this far but now we are beginning to exit the retooling part. We simply have to make a couple of trades and spend our potentially $70M in AAV we will have available in free agency this year (note we can't and won't spend all of that but we will spend a big chunk) and the 2nd half of this year (potentially) and 2018 will be the start of a sustained long run of competition for the Angels.

If Eppler applies his resources right we will be competing for the next 10 years starting very soon. Even after 2020 whether Trout stays or not we will be competitive.

Edited July 16, 2017 by ettin

[The_Outrunner]

2 minutes ago, ettin said:

I wrote about this in late May of 2016:

This has never been a rebuild operation, it has always been a retool operation. A rebuild is where you sell most if not all of your assets to obtain long-term controllable prospects or players with many years of control and use 2 or more years of the MLB draft to help restock your system for a more sustainable run 2-5 years out.

The Angels have never been, nor will likely to every be, a rebuild team. We have too much payroll space and, despite the many grumblings on this board (including myself on occasion), we have always had a core group of competent players year to year even in the down years.

The injuries that hit us in 2016 decimated that year for us. Because we did not spend in free agency (turns out to have been a wise move now in hindsight) 2017 was always going to be a crapshoot in terms of our ability to compete. Eppler did a great job in assembling a rag-tag group that has gotten us this far but now we are beginning to exit the retooling part. We simply have to make a couple of trades and spend our potentially $70M in AAV we will have available in free agency this year (note we can't and won't spend all of that but we will spend a big chunk) and the 2nd half of this year (potentially) and 2018 will be the start of a sustained long run of competition for the Angels.

If Eppler applies his resources right we will be competing for the next 10 years starting very soon. Even after 2020 whether Trout stays or not we will be competitive.

I honestly hope this is the truth! I'm such a pessimist when it comes to the team lately, but I do totally agree. I just feel like we can't give up our first round pick(s) to sustain this team going forward. We need to develop guys late round guys like  Anderson and Shields again. 

[Vegas Halo Fan]

2 hours ago, floplag said:

I've grown increasingly frustrated with the clubs general blase attitude towards actually making an effort to win while we have Trout on the roster.  I've not been around much because frankly i havent had anything good to say, but with the recent rumors i figured id step back into the fray.   

I don't know what you expect. Ownership is unwilling to sink major money into free agents, with the sunken costs of Hamilton and Pujols on the books. The farm system sucks, so we have nothing to offer any team trying to move a potential difference maker. Injuries, especially to the pitching staff, have hampered the team all season. In all honesty, I believe that the GM and the manager have done a remarkable job keeping the team where it is, given the circumstances.

[fan_since79]

I'm imagining Arte might have conflicting feelings on this whole money issue. Sure, he's absolutely loaded, but he's been burned on some enormous contracts. If I were him and taking financial stock of the team, I would see a successful and huge TV contract, attendance of 30-40 thousand day in and day out, and a team valued at more than five times what he paid for it in CASH back in the day. Not a lot of motivation, perhaps, to try more dramatic moves as in the recent past.

The bottom line is this team is financially very healthy. To my knowledge, Arte hasn't made a single public statement of disappointment in the team's lack of progress in the winning department. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

18 minutes ago, fan_since79 said:

attendance of 30-40 thousand day in and day out

I don't know about that. It's a Sunday and I don't think there are much more than 20,000 there today.

[jsnpritchett]

1 minute ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I don't know about that. It's a Sunday and I don't think there are much more than 20,000 there today.

They'll still report 30K+, I bet.

[beatlesrule]

1 hour ago, fan_since79 said:

I'm imagining Arte might have conflicting feelings on this whole money issue. Sure, he's absolutely loaded, but he's been burned on some enormous contracts. If I were him and taking financial stock of the team, I would see a successful and huge TV contract, attendance of 30-40 thousand day in and day out, and a team valued at more than five times what he paid for it in CASH back in the day. Not a lot of motivation, perhaps, to try more dramatic moves as in the recent past.

The bottom line is this team is financially very healthy. To my knowledge, Arte hasn't made a single public statement of disappointment in the team's lack of progress in the winning department. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Why would he?  He is making money.  That's all he cares about.  Couldn't care less about a World Series.  The last time he talked about the team, he made a ridiculous and offensive statement about doing the best he/they can.  The Hamilton/Wells contract mess was all HIS doing.  It's his own fault.  No fans were clamoring for Hamilton.  The logical and sensible thing to do was to sign Hunter but we all know that didn't happen.  I do not feel bad for Moreno one bit.  He is choosing to waste the best player in baseball and you know what??  He can do whatever he wants because as long as he gets his 3 million fans, he will go right on continuing to just tread water. Until we as fans stop showing up to games and buying merch, this will continue. The Angels are his pet project.  The dude has more money than this whole message board combined will ever make in their lifetimes.  We just have to sit back and take it or root for another team.

[Troll Daddy]

41 minutes ago, jsnpritchett said:

They'll still report 30K+, I bet.

It's all about sold tickets ... why wouldn't it be. Although, the more you have going through the turnstiles ... the more $$$

[jsnpritchett]

2 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

It's all about sold tickets ... why wouldn't it be. Although, the more you have going through the turnstiles ... the more $$$

At one point, one of the leagues (don't remember if it was AL or NL) reported actual attendance, not tickets sold.  A lot of "tickets sold" are in discount blocks for giveaways or to bulk re-sellers.

[ettin]

11 minutes ago, beatlesrule said:

Why would he?  He is making money.  That's all he cares about.  Couldn't care less about a World Series.  The last time he talked about the team, he made a ridiculous and offensive statement about doing the best he/they can.  The Hamilton/Wells contract mess was all HIS doing.  It's his own fault.  No fans were clamoring for Hamilton.  The logical and sensible thing to do was to sign Hunter but we all know that didn't happen.  I do not feel bad for Moreno one bit.  He is choosing to waste the best player in baseball and you know what??  He can do whatever he wants because as long as he gets his 3 million fans, he will go right on continuing to just tread water. Until we as fans stop showing up to games and buying merch, this will continue. The Angels are his pet project.  The dude has more money than this whole message board combined will ever make in their lifetimes.  We just have to sit back and take it or root for another team.

Respectfully beatlesrule this just is not true in any way shape or form. I'm sure Arte likes to make a buck or two he is a businessman but he would not have kept payroll budget so elevated over the last 14 years if he did not want to see the team win. That is a fact. If money was all that mattered to him he would not be investing so heavily in trying to acquire free agents like Hamilton and Wells. He wants to win just like every other owner in the League. Winning = free promotion and no one knows promotion like Arte it is how he made and makes his living.

[beatlesrule]

10 minutes ago, ettin said:

Respectfully beatlesrule this just is not true in any way shape or form. I'm sure Arte likes to make a buck or two he is a businessman but he would not have kept payroll budget so elevated over the last 14 years if he did not want to see the team win. That is a fact. If money was all that mattered to him he would not be investing so heavily in trying to acquire free agents like Hamilton and Wells. He wants to win just like every other owner in the League. Winning = free promotion and no one knows promotion like Arte it is how he made and makes his living.

Again, he had to do that in order to draw 3 million fans.  He simply keeps the team afloat treading water.  If he really cared about winning, he would always be after the biggest and the best.  He would make sure he did EVERYTHING he could to put the absolute best product on the field at all times.  He would surround Trout with the best talent available to him.  He hasn't done any of those things.  Say what you will about the other LA team, but they sure aren't wasting Kershaws years.  They have the best or almost the best record in baseball and have been in the playoffs way more than the Angels have the last 5-6 years with a great farm and young talent to boot.  If Arte really wanted to win the World Series, he would be doing WAYYYYYYYY more than he has been.

[bloodbrother]

Here's the problem....all the things you wanted to see this team do are the things they did in prior years and it ended up as a bust. They are paying the consequences of those actions now. Hard to improve when you are losing draft picks from bust FA signings AND drafting poorly. You can't spend big money on every position and the Halos don't have the prospects to fill spots

 

[70runner]

It approaches an unworkable situation.  No matter what they are stuck with an old, fat guy who can't run hitting behind the best player in baseball.  Beyond Trout, perhaps Simmons and Calhoun, they have nobody trade attractive.  Their FA adventures seem to rarely work out, while draining the prospect bank.  A mediocre team since 2014, perhaps destined to remain mediocre until after the two 10yr contracts expire.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

30 minutes ago, 70runner said:

A mediocre team since 2014, perhaps destined to remain mediocre until after the two 10yr contracts expire.

The Pujols contract is going to wind up being one of the biggest boat anchors in baseball history.

[Stradling]

10 minutes ago, Vegas Halo Fan said:

The Pujols contract is going to wind up being one of the biggest boat anchors in baseball history.

It's a bad contract.  It's far from a boat anchor for Arte.  After this season the Angels have roughly $70 million to spend without hitting the tax.  The team makes $200 million a year before selling a single ticket, hot dog or jersey.  He's capable of going over the tax.  Let's see if he will. 

[tomsred]

Part of that $70M will go to increases in contractural commitments to Trout and Simmons.  Also, unfortunately we don't have enough minor leaguers ready to come up and be productive for league minimum.  It's been said on here before, but nothing really will get fixed until we have some really hot snot minor leaguers ready to come up and play full time. And that will take some time.  Meanwhile we can be entertained with the criticisms.

[Stradling]

5 minutes ago, tomsred said:

Part of that $70M will go to increases in contractural commitments to Trout and Simmons.  Also, unfortunately we don't have enough minor leaguers ready to come up and be productive for league minimum.  It's been said on here before, but nothing really will get fixed until we have some really hot snot minor leaguers ready to come up and play full time. And that will take some time.  Meanwhile we can be entertained with the criticisms.

No that money won't go to Trout and Simmons not as it relates to the tax.  

[floplag]

3 hours ago, bloodbrother said:

Here's the problem....all the things you wanted to see this team do are the things they did in prior years and it ended up as a bust. They are paying the consequences of those actions now. Hard to improve when you are losing draft picks from bust FA signings AND drafting poorly. You can't spend big money on every position and the Halos don't have the prospects to fill spots

 

Agreed, but the presence of Trout changes it.  Lets be real if he was ANYONE else, literally anyone, we would all be willing to trade him.  But noone is for various reasons.  I'm not either but if we arent going to win with him what the point of having him when we could restock in one day if we did as opposed to the years its going to take otehwise.  

We cant just say "well it didnt work out in the past" and do nothing.  

Right now its our only option to improve in the next few years, either spend, or trade Trout.  I would rather spend.  If they dont want to do that well... 

[floplag]

49 minutes ago, Stradling said:

It's a bad contract.  It's far from a boat anchor for Arte.  After this season the Angels have roughly $70 million to spend without hitting the tax.  The team makes $200 million a year before selling a single ticket, hot dog or jersey.  He's capable of going over the tax.  Let's see if he will. 

Bingo... 

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

7 hours ago, floplag said:

Not what i mean.. there are clubs like the As that legit dont have the revenue streams, we are not one of them.  There is virtually zero chance this club is losing money even it it was paying a luxury tax.  No i dont see the P&Ls but there's just no way. 

TV contract alone is $150M/yr.+ attendance, parking, concessions, merchandise, advertising, and what ever else there is. Arte has the money to spend and he should. He'll get even more money for winning in the playoffs.

Spend, Spend, Spend. Just because you got burned in the past, doesn't mean you have to get burned this time. Eppler seems to know what he's doing listen to him and don't try to be your own GM.

[Ohtaniland]