You don't rebuild with the best player in the game...

[floplag]

I've grown increasingly frustrated with the clubs general blase attitude towards actually making an effort to win while we have Trout on the roster.  I've not been around much because frankly i havent had anything good to say, but with the recent rumors i figured id step back into the fray.   

I get it, they were snakebit etc... over Hackilton and are way overpaying for Pujols, but you cant use Pujols as an excuse cause we all knew that was going to be the case. 
The rest of the bad money is falling off... its time to step up.  

We are not a second rate team, or shouldn't be, money shouldn't be an issue luxury tax or no... so why have we gone dumpster diving for the better part of the last 2-3 years?  I have never understood that.  Why do you throw away 2-3 years of the best player on the planet over a bad deal or two.. jesus eat it and move on.  I know its not my money but if you really want to get technical it isnt Artes either, the TV deal is covering those expenses.  The club is one of the top 50 valued franchises per Forbes so... yeah, money excuses are BS in my book. 

I still care far more about the name on the front of the jersey than the back, so while i 100% appreciate Trout, i would trade him if i thought it would legit make the club better... the problem is that right now i dont think it would.  I have in the past suggested we should be open to it, and i still feel thats the case, but i think it makes far more sense to build around him at this point.

No team is going to survive the run of injuries weve had to the pitching staff, but they have managed to hang on in what might be Svens best season actually managing the ballclub, which is hard for me to say as ive advocated replacing him.  But... i dont think pitching has been our problem, its the offense.  

The core is solid if unspectacular... buti really have nothing bad to say about Trout, Calhoun, Maybin, Escobar, Simmons.. even Maldonada has done very well behind the plate, and Pujols will be the #1 DH regardless, but the revolving door train wreck on the right side has got to stop. 

I know im not saying anything that most of you reading this dont know... but i was encouraged last week to hear we were in on Gordon..which might mean precisely dick as i dont know what we could possibly trade to make that happen.. but the idea that they were at least kicking that tire on a guy that really makes a ton of sense in our lineup prompted me to come out of hiding. 

[Stradling]

Trout is a 9-10 win player.  Trading him would mean you need to get AT LEAST 18 wins in return in 3-4 players.  Even then it's unlikely a team has that many good players to trade in return and it won't decimate their team.  Plus you'd want prospects.  

[floplag]

2 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Trout is a 9-10 win player.  Trading him would mean you need to get AT LEAST 18 wins in return in 3-4 players.  Even then it's unlikely a team has that many good players to trade in return and it won't decimate their team.  Plus you'd want prospects.  

Agreed, the math is never going to line up in those terms, which is why it likely never happens.   No GM would have the balls to take that chance, if it backfires his career is over.  

And im not suggesting we do trade him, but... we also cannot be closed minded to whatever may come.  What if someone came to us with top prospects/young ML proven guys  at 1B, 2B, OF, and SP that sets up the team for the next 10 years... do you absolutely dismiss it?   I dont, but i also dont think it happens so its moot.  

All im saying is that im tired of the excuses, its time to fix the problems somehow some way and stop acting like a tier 2 poor team without resources.  We are literally wasting the best player of the generation, thats almost as unforgivable as trading him, maybe moreso.     
 

[Hufflepuff]

I don't think they're trying to "rebuild" as you put it. Signing big free agent contracts, as you suggest, doesn't help this team. Who do you think we missed out on? Jason Heyward??? Zack Grienke??? No thank you. Trout is the best player in the game, and he's also very young. I think we're on the right track. Draft well, make smaller acquisitions that help the team like Maldonado, maybin, Meyer, and Escobar, and let the young talent come up and fill in around Trout. Hopefully we're contending in 3-4 years (Trout will still be south of 30). Its a process that you just gotta watch and try to enjoy. 

[Angel Oracle]

Time to start adding legit lineup guys around Trout, Simmons, and Calhoun in the off-season.

This will be a big test for Eppler.   I like what I've seen so far for the most part.   Now it's time to take it to the next level (contention) without sacrificing too much of the farm.

Will Arte be up to it, with lots of AAV being freed up?   While being smart about it.

[nando714]

Arte needs to spend and spend a lot bc we have zero youngsters ready to contribute in the next 2 years 

[floplag]

5 minutes ago, Hufflepuff said:

I don't think they're trying to "rebuild" as you put it. Signing big free agent contracts, as you suggest, doesn't help this team. Who do you think we missed out on? Jason Heyward??? Zack Grienke??? No thank you. Trout is the best player in the game, and he's also very young. I think we're on the right track. Draft well, make smaller acquisitions that help the team like Maldonado, maybin, Meyer, and Escobar, and let the young talent come up and fill in around Trout. Hopefully we're contending in 3-4 years (Trout will still be south of 30). Its a process that you just gotta watch and try to enjoy. 

I dont know what else to call the last couple years of dumpster diving other than just waiting till the bad money drops... which is another term ofr wasting 2 years when we should have the resources to absorb it.
I simply cannot appreciate any reasons for wasting the last few years, and can think of no other word for it 

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, floplag said:

I dont know what else to call the last couple years of dumpster diving other than just waiting till the bad money drops... which is another term ofr wasting 2 years when we should have the resources to absorb it.
I simply cannot appreciate any reasons for wasting the last few years, and can think of no other word for it 

But during that same time they were rebuilding the farm. Flop, let's say the Angels did what I wanted and spent big money on free agents.  We would be in a much worse position than we are now, simply based on how bad free agents have performed versus dollars the last couple of years.  

[floplag]

I think that depends on who they were, but its speculation either way.  bottom line we didnt spend, for whatever reasons, and its still the only way to fix our problems.   We have achieved nothing in that time aside from waiting for the bad money to fall off.  To me that's not justified and makes me nervous. 
almost no FA in recent years has performed up to the dollar value of the deals, largely because the deals are far more than they should be, but its the way of things when they are the only FA out there and the only way you can help the club immediately is thru FA or trades and we have little to trade. 

[Hufflepuff]

9 minutes ago, floplag said:

I dont know what else to call the last couple years of dumpster diving other than just waiting till the bad money drops... which is another term ofr wasting 2 years when we should have the resources to absorb it.
I simply cannot appreciate any reasons for wasting the last few years, and can think of no other word for it 

That's why I'm asking, who could they have signed? Adding more big contracts on top of bad contracts because we have a young superstar doesn't fix the problem.  It makes it worst.

They haven't just been waiting for big contracts to fall off the books, but have been desperately trying to rebuild a farm system that was by far the worst in all of baseball.

[tdawg87]

I do think this offseason will truly let us know where Arte stands. Payroll will be about 45 million below the threshold. That's enough to land you a good offensive piece and a solid starter. 

[floplag]

Just now, Hufflepuff said:

That's why I'm asking, who could they have signed? Adding more big contracts on top of bad contracts because we have a young superstar doesn't fix the problem. 

Actually without a farm or tradable assets its the ONLY way to fix it if you intend to compete.  We chose to wait and let the money fall off. 

[floplag]

3 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

I do think this offseason will truly let us know where Arte stands. Payroll will be about 45 million below the threshold. That's enough to land you a good offensive piece and a solid starter. 

I think that time start now.

[nando714]

You'd have to think Trout's patience is running thin.

[Angels#1Fan]

46 minutes ago, floplag said:

 I know its not my money but if you really want to get technical it isnt Artes either,

Of course it's his money, he made it, it's income generated by the business he owns! Just because he didn't mow someones lawn doesn't mean it isn't his.

This constant bleating about it (money) not being a big deal is ridiculous. Losing close to a billion dollars is not insignificant and expecting Moreno to just keep eating money because people think it isn't his is naive..sorry I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but this crap about the money not being Moreno's or that it's no big deal is nonsense.

This shouldn't be construed as me being on the owners side, in fact I'm suspicious of many practices baseball owners employ and I'll continue to be skeptical of them until they open their books when they start crying about how little they actually make. 

[DMVol]

47 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

....This will be a big test for Eppler.   I like what I've seen so far for the most part.   Now it's time to take it to the next level (contention) without sacrificing too much of the farm.

I generally like what Eppler has done....but Espinosa and Valbuena give me some pause....and, though I like Maybin, you can't ignore .238 in mid July...That's over 20 million in either sucky (Valbuena and Espinosa) or mediocre (Maybin) offense...

[Angel Oracle]

29 minutes ago, tdawg87 said:

I do think this offseason will truly let us know where Arte stands. Payroll will be about 45 million below the threshold. That's enough to land you a good offensive piece and a solid starter. 

It's not a ton.   But's significantly more space than they've had since the disasterous Hackilton signing.

[floplag]

8 minutes ago, nando714 said:

You'd have to think Trout's patience is running thin.

Yeah, this.... at some point hes going to get sick of it, who wouldnt.

[floplag]

11 minutes ago, Angels#1Fan said:

Of course it's his money, he made it, it's income generated by the business he owns! Just because he didn't mow someones lawn doesn't mean it isn't his.

This constant bleating about it (money) not being a big deal is ridiculous. Losing close to a billion dollars is not insignificant and expecting Moreno to just keep eating money because people think it isn't his is naive..sorry I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but this crap about the money not being Moreno's or that it's no big deal is nonsense.

This shouldn't be construed as me being on the owners side, in fact I'm suspicious of many practices baseball owners employ and I'll continue to be skeptical of them until they open their books when they start crying about how little they actually make. 

Not what i mean.. there are clubs like the As that legit dont have the revenue streams, we are not one of them.  There is virtually zero chance this club is losing money even it it was paying a luxury tax.  No i dont see the P&Ls but there's just no way. 

[Stradling]

39 minutes ago, floplag said:

Actually without a farm or tradable assets its the ONLY way to fix it if you intend to compete.  We chose to wait and let the money fall off. 

Which was probably the right decision.  I like free agency as much as the next guy but to guess right on all of them is impossible. 

[floplag]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

Which was probably the right decision.  I like free agency as much as the next guy but to guess right on all of them is impossible. 

No, you cant, but being right on just 1 or 2 would have made us a contender if we are within striking distance as is.  Regardless you cant be right or wrong without making the effort.   I do not consider what we have done recently as doing that. 

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, floplag said:

No, you cant, but being right on just 1 or 2 would have made us a contender if we are within striking distance as is.  Regardless you cant be right or wrong without making the effort.   I do not consider what we have done recently as doing that. 

if you consider being in the wild card a contender then simple health puts us there.  There are no two free agents in the last couple of years that would put us in first place.  Doesn't mean I think the Astros will win it, but that's a really good regular season team. 

[floplag]

Just now, Stradling said:

if you consider being in the wild card a contender then simple health puts us there.  There are no two free agents in the last couple of years that would put us in first place.  Doesn't mean I think the Astros will win it, but that's a really good regular season team. 

No, i dont consider a simple wild card contention, and im also not sure heatlh alone puts us there.  We may be going with a makeshift pitching staff but all things considered its done pretty well.  Our overall pitching stats are in the top half of the league while the bats are in the bottom 5 mostly. 
We need help, mostly on the right side of the infield.  well see what happens 

[DMVol]

55 minutes ago, floplag said:

Actually without a farm or tradable assets its the ONLY way to fix it if you intend to compete.  We chose to wait and let the money fall off. 

 We spent more money this past offseason than we have since Hamilton---it just hasn't paid off--Espinosa, Valbuena have been terrible, Maybin, Revere and Chavez have been pretty mediocre (although probably predictably so)....Maldanado added a little to the payroll and has been the best addition...Eppler has been really good with cheap pitching--Ramirez, Bridwell, the pen guys....

[Angels#1Fan]

7 minutes ago, floplag said:

Not what i mean.. there are clubs like the As that legit dont have the revenue streams, we are not one of them.  There is virtually zero chance this club is losing money even it it was paying a luxury tax.  No i dont see the P&Ls but there's just no way. 

My case wasn't that the club lost money..my point was that Moreno lost money.

For example, Moreno lost pretty much $125M on Hamilton. That money is gone whether or not it is reflected on his P&L statement. It's money that was flushed that could have either gone into Moreno's pocket or the teams. The fact that the team generated a certain amount of revenue has nothing to do with actual losses! Hamilton was paid for services rendered and Moreno got little, very little for those services even if the the team still made money.