Bernie's free college idea

[Angelsjunky]

I agree with this. Keynesianism breeds cronyism. 

 

Cool, we agree on something.

[Angelsjunky]

Again with this crap man.  People with higher incomes benefit from their hard work.  It isn't a system.

 

Sure, someone who grew up with money is more likely to be able to continue to make money.  That still isn't a system.  Someone along the lines worked hard to earn that money so future generations could be taken care of.

 

And by the way, they did it with far fewer welfare comforts than people enjoy now.

 

I don't have a problem with this in principle, but it is not really how things work out. The Waltons might have started with hard work and elbow grease, but now they benefit at the expense of others, those that work for them. Isn't that a problem? I'm not saying that we shouldn't have rich and comparatively poor people, but that the ever-increasing extremes are rather disgusting and point to a major problem.

 

I can guess what you might say next: the Walmart employees are too stupid and get what they deserve. But why are they too stupid? Could it be education and poverty? And how to address that?

 

I think there are valid and different views on how to fix the problem, but to say there isn't one...

[nate]

I'm not ignoring the fact that taxing the middle class is problematic, I'm just pointing to the larger context - which you seem to be ignoring. As Bernie said, a person might pay $5K more in taxes but wills ave $10K on insurance and medical bills. Obviously this changes the more you make, but sometimes you need a lesser evil ("stealing from the rich") to combat a greater one (poverty).

 

Seriously where the **** do you come up with this math?

 

First of all, a single payer system will not lower costs, no matter what you say.  At most insurance companies work on a 5% profit.  That is != to covering 30 million Americans without insurance.

 

On top of that, when people do not have a co pay and deductible they go to the doctor for every small thing, cough, cold, stubbed toe, etc which drives prices up even more.

 

That doesn't even get to the 1 million+ middle class Americans that would now be jobless.

 

In fact, I would love to have you tell me and my wife that we should be unemployed so some random person can have health care.  You can explain to my daughter why we lost our house and our car and have to go live with grampa and grandma.

 

Instead you should go tell the parasites to cancel their cable bill, cancel their smart phone bill and get a ****ing job.

 

People that are physically unable to have a job are one thing, and by the way there are systems in place for those people already.

 

People that do not work hard, that do not have aspirations get what they get.  And by the way, we do already pay for their healthcare because it just gets factored into the costs that are passed on to us.

 

There are three things that impact healthcare costs in t his country by a gigantic margin, those are obesity, smoking and alcohol.  Funny how Bernie is not concerned by those things at all.  You know why?  Most of his constituents fit into those categories.  If fat dude quits smoking, quits drinking, and loses weight I will happily subsidize him.  Won't ever happen though.

[Crampknees]

The Dems always claim to fix things by taxing the wealthy and Reps always claim to fix things by reduced taxes and kill gays and Muslims. Really just their schtick to get elected and once in office they could give a rats ass at that point. 

 

The Government does waste your money but the private sector influence they contract your money to wastes it the same.  You have to pay taxes so an engineer designed the slope on the overpass correctly and you just don't fly off but both parties just burn your money equally. Dems. toss it at Sheniqua and her water breaking again while the Reps. toss it at their buddies business and their never ending invoice flow.

 

If there were not incompetence and corruption taxes would never be an issue, however, that isn't ever going to happen.   

[nate]

The Waltons employ millions of people and provide huge tax revenues to the states and the country.  They aren't taking advantage of anything.  They came up with a business model that is incredibly successful.

[Angelsjunky]

nate, what's your solution? I'm honestly curious.

[Angelsjunky]

Advocating for the Waltons! Nice.

 

Anyhow, I like how you ignore the fact that they pay their employees nothing, don't provide them with affordable health care, which in turn requires their employees to be on welfare - which you hate. But none of that matters, right?

Edited February 10, 2016 by Angelsjunky

[nate]

to what?

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

AJ you give way too much credit to politicians and in this case Sanders.  In this or another thread you said something to the effect "well if his team came out with the numbers I'm sure they researched them" like that was the end all be all of the discussion.  More power to you for being an optimist but at the same time you're more an idealist than a realist.  

[mtangelsfan]

The Dems always claim to fix things by taxing the wealthy and Reps always claim to fix things by reduced taxes and kill gays and Muslims. Really just their schtick to get elected and once in office they could give a rats ass at that point. 

 

The Government does waste your money but the private sector influence they contract your money to wastes it the same.  You have to pay taxes so an engineer designed the slope on the overpass correctly and you just don't fly off but both parties just burn your money equally. Dems. toss it at Sheniqua and her water breaking again while the Reps. toss it at their buddies business and their never ending invoice flow.

 

If there were not incompetence and corruption taxes would never be an issue, however, that isn't ever going to happen.   

 

This is absurd.

[Crampknees]

I would like to thank the academy for that vote. 

[nate]

Here is what I think should happen:

 

Close tax loopholes for corporations and reduce corporate taxes by 5-10%

Close immigration completely for at least 5 years but more likely 10-20 years until population growth is under control

Leave the Middle East, cut defense spending and put our troops to work improving infrastructure

Deport all known illegal immigrants

Require citizenship for any state or federal benefit

Require welfare recipients to show that they do not drink, smoke, do drugs or have any excessive spending including anything other than a basic cell phone service and bare minimum internet service.  Additionally if they are not disabled require them to get a job within six months and keep it for at least six months or they lose their benefits.

Remove all government mandates from health insurance and allow people to purchase the plan that works for them.

Cut the tax rate for the middle class from 25 and 28% to 20-23%

 

That is just a start.

[mtangelsfan]

See my follow-up response. I agree that income tax isn't ideal, but it is the system we work under and, as you say, we aren't going to do a 180 (which also critiques libertarianism and you're desire to do away with the income tax, right?).

 

So yeah, I agree the government has been mismanaged, but what's your PRACTICAL solution? What is the way forward that could actually happen?

 

Looking at American history, one of the things that DID work was FDR's New Deal, which is about as socialist as you can get. This is what, I think, Bernie is proposing--although, of course, one that is applicable to the 21st century. The New Deal was part of the reason for American prosperity from the 1940s-70s.

 

 

 

FDR's new deal only worked because of the war.  Plus, weren't you just talking about not going back to the 50's but now you want to go back to the forties?

 

My solution is that the government needs to put its big boy pants on, suck it up, cut massive amounts of spending.  Get Social Security back to where it is and   It is absolutely absurd that they keep looking to the middle class to bear the burden of their own incompetence.

 

this is what I liken it to.  You have an acquaintance that you give money to because they are down on their luck.  They use the money you gave them to buy a big screen tv instead.  So you, being the nice guy you are, give them more money to help them get out of debt and get food and clothes.  Again, the guy spends it on a new Iphone 6.  Again, being a super person, you give them more money because they swear they are going to do the right thing with the money this time.  Instead, he takes his bros to Vegas for the weekend and gambles the money away.  

 

 

At some point, I'm going to stop giving this guy money.

Edited February 10, 2016 by mtangelsfan

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

Nate - regarding welfare I came across an article yesterday that I think was posted here months ago discussing how Maine required able bodied adults who don't have kids to complete a certain number of work, volunteer or job training hours before becoming eligible:

 

http://usherald.com/maine-welfare-recipients-must-work-for-their-benefits/

 

Not sure what the aftermath was since this was back in April but I thought it was interesting.

[mtangelsfan]

Here is what I think should happen:

 

Close tax loopholes for corporations and reduce corporate taxes by 5-10%- agree

Close immigration completely for at least 5 years but more likely 10-20 years until population growth is under control- I just think we need to manage it better

Leave the Middle East, cut defense spending and put our troops to work improving infrastructure-  Agree

Deport all known illegal immigrants-  Not necessary

Require citizenship for any state or federal benefit - Or working toward citizenship

Require welfare recipients to show that they do not drink, smoke, do drugs or have any excessive spending including anything other than a basic cell phone service and bare minimum internet service.  Additionally if they are not disabled require them to get a job within six months and keep it for at least six months or they lose their benefits. - agree

Remove all government mandates from health insurance and allow people to purchase the plan that works for them.- agree

Cut the tax rate for the middle class from 25 and 28% to 20-23% - agree

 

That is just a start.

[Crampknees]

Require welfare recipients to show that they do not drink, smoke, do drugs or have any excessive spending including anything other than a basic cell phone service and bare minimum internet service.  Additionally if they are not disabled require them to get a job within six months and keep it for at least six months or they lose their benefits.

======================================================

 

Good theory but takes a lot more people and resources set up to monitor all that correctly. 

 

Wonder if there are already private businesses who do help with this monitoring, something to think about.  If you hire more people to really track all this run by the govt. the people checking will be smoking a cigarette and never at their desk.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Kurt Swanson

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

Require welfare recipients to show that they do not drink, smoke, do drugs or have any excessive spending including anything other than a basic cell phone service and bare minimum internet service.  Additionally if they are not disabled require them to get a job within six months and keep it for at least six months or they lose their benefits.

======================================================

 

Good theory but takes a lot more people and resources set up to monitor all that correctly. 

 

So it creates jobs while cutting out people who shouldn't be receiving welfare.  It would cost more in the short term but in the long run it would reduce welfare fraud/abuse.

[Angelsjunky]

AJ you give way too much credit to politicians and in this case Sanders.  In this or another thread you said something to the effect "well if his team came out with the numbers I'm sure they researched them" like that was the end all be all of the discussion.  More power to you for being an optimist but at the same time you're more an idealist than a realist.  

 

Probably so.

 

That said, I don't expect Sanders to work wonders but I'd like to see him given a chance to try. Hillary will just maintain the status quo and, at best, continue Obama's baby-steps, but not fundamentally change the primacy of big money in politics. The Republicans are all varying degrees of scary, except for maybe Kasich who--while being a bit old-fashioned for my tastes--is at least clearly a decent man (I loved his "slow down" bit, btw).

[mtangelsfan]

Require welfare recipients to show that they do not drink, smoke, do drugs or have any excessive spending including anything other than a basic cell phone service and bare minimum internet service.  Additionally if they are not disabled require them to get a job within six months and keep it for at least six months or they lose their benefits.

======================================================

 

Good theory but takes a lot more people and resources set up to monitor all that correctly. 

 

Not really, all they have to do is send in their utility bill and monthly drug test results.

[nate]

While significantly decreasing the number of health issues with these people.

[nate]

Something I always tell people I know that smoke that I am encouraging to quit is to go sit near the admissions counter at an ER.

 

Listen to all of the people coming in with chest pains or breathing problems.  The first question they will ask is "do you smoke?" and 9 times out of 10 the answer will be yes.

 

Explain to me why I should pay for that person's health insurance.  If they wan't to smoke they should pay for their own damn insurance.

[Angelsjunky]

I'll take one from mt and reply to each:

 

Close tax loopholes for corporations and reduce corporate taxes by 5-10% - Definitely agree on the first, not sure on the second. I'd like to see the impact of closing tax loopholes first

Close immigration completely for at least 5 years but more likely 10-20 years until population growth is under control - Not realistic, imo. How to do this barring a heavily militarized border?

Leave the Middle East, cut defense spending and put our troops to work improving infrastructure - strongly agree

Deport all known illegal immigrants - I'd rather offer a path to citizenship

Require citizenship for any state or federal benefit - I can live with that, barring emergency care of course, and with the caveat that immigrants can receive benefits if they are on the path to citizenship

Require welfare recipients to show that they do not drink, smoke, do drugs or have any excessive spending including anything other than a basic cell phone service and bare minimum internet service.  Additionally if they are not disabled require them to get a job within six months and keep it for at least six months or they lose their benefits. - As for the first, I could go with that IF it includes help with addiction--treating it as an illness, not a crime. Another way would be to really tighten up welfare benefits, as vouchers rather than any cash involved. As for the latter, I was under the impression that most welfare services require continual job searching and expire after a certain amount of time, but am not certain.

Remove all government mandates from health insurance and allow people to purchase the plan that works for them. - I'd rather see this with education than health care.

Cut the tax rate for the middle class from 25 and 28% to 20-23% - Sure, why not, but it sounds good in a bubble - it depends upon other factors. And what about other income levels?

 

[Crampknees]

Not really, all they have to do is send in their utility bill and monthly drug test results.

Still isn't that easy.  Not like there are 1200 people out there collecting govt. assistance. 

[nate]

AJ, their addiction treatment would be that they will die in the street without any money if they don't stop.

[Crampknees]

And really MT it is a misconception that everyone is running around there with 8,000 premium channels and all the newest technology at the expense of the govt.  There are working people who need assistance just to pay any utility bill.  It isn't as cut and dry as the cons make it as everyone is freeloading.  

 

Far as smoking.  This really isn't a poor person disease either.  I know many multi-millionaires, using their medi-care for continuous prescriptions, who should have stopped smoking years ago. 

 

Vises and stupidity are not only results of poor people.