Downfall of the Angels

[NorCal Halo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wrzy8vNhh8

[ABC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wrzy8vNhh8

[UndertheHalo]

Just a little dramatic.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Was thinking about this earlier. From 04-09 it felt like we were on top of the world. Stumbled until 12, which sucked at the end, but at least that offseason it felt like moreno was still gonna get his ring. Obviously the debacle of gmj, wells, pujols in terms of expectstions and hamilton would make anyone gunshy. And potentially kill a franchise to be fair. But i thought with the tv deal money wasnt a problem really

[Ohtaniland]

This was all predictable. Arte has finally reached his limit. He signed Albert Pujols in hopes that he was going to carry the team on his back and that plan failed. He then signed Hamilton to compliment Pujols and that plan failed. Hamilton now plays elsewhere on Arte's dime and Pujols after only four seasons is now rumored to be handed the bulk of the DH duties.

The window of opportunity for the Angels to win with Pujols, Wilson, Weaver and Hamilton is slammed shut but Arte is still stuck paying out close to $100M for these guys in 2016.

I believe that Arte had good intentions but reality has finally kicked in. Would signing another long term mega deal really make a difference at this point? I don't believe that we are a championship level team with Weaver, Wilson and Pujols eating up key roster spots and heavy financial resources that could've been used on younger players. Additionally paying Hamilton $28M this season and next is a sick joke. The current Royals roster doesn't have one player making $10M.

I've been bashed many times here for mentioning these crazy over paid contracts. I completely agree with Arte on his decision not to throw more money on top of bad money. I believe that Eppler has to figure out a way to take out the trash first. That may take 3-5 years.

[nando714]

[Stradling]

Would signing another long term deal really make a difference at this point? Yes, if you sign the right guy. You keep bringing up the Royals, well the Royals were awful for 30 years, 30! They drafted at the top of the draft every year for a very long time. They are in that sweet spot of where all the talent came up and isn't getting paid yet. They had the talent to go make trades for guys like Zobrist, Cueto and Wade Davis. The Angels do not have the talent to make those trades. Oh and I am pretty sure that in 2016 Morales will make over $10 million. So the team that just won the World Series for them have three players that will be making over $10 million, Morales, Zobrist and Cueto.

You keep missing two points. One this is the last year they have Wilson and Weaver on the team, so after this year that clears about $40 million in salary. This team could compete for the playoffs this year. Next year when they have $40 million in tax space the free agent class will be awful compared to this year. Albert is here to stay which sucks because it means 6 more years of you posting, "Albert was suppose to put this team on his back". That is your narrative not Arte's or the Angels. I am sure the team hoped to get more good years out of Albert, but carrying them to a title was only part of why he was brought here. The second point is why spend $170 million on an average product, when you can spend $20 million more and possibly compete for a title, at the very least be in the playoff discussion.

Why do you add Weaver to the same list as free agent signings. There wasn't a person alive that thought the Weaver signing was a bad signing at the time it happened, not one single person.

[Stradling]

The downfall of the Angels (which I think is incredibly silly considering where this team was prior to 2002 historically) is the inability the last several years to draft and develop players. You can all say, well if we wouldn't have signed this guy or if we wouldn't have signed that guy, or if we had just offered a QO to this guy, but that isn't it. How bout you draft guys in the 2nd round that make an impact in the majors. How bout we spend money internationally? How bout we run a program down in the Dominican that is run on integrity, rather than stay away because you aren't comfortable with the way things work down there. Instead change the way things are done. Position players worth a damn that we drafted in the last 10 years, Trout, Calhoun. Am I missing anyone? Grichuk. Two were first round picks in the same draft the other was a fifth round pick. Come on Angels how bout a 2nd round pick that comes up and is an everyday starter. Or how bout you draft pitchers that we can trade for position players. That is the downfall of the Angels, not spending money on free agency, it is HAVING to spend money on free agency.

[Redondo]

Why do you add Weaver to the same list as free agent signings. There wasn't a person alive that thought the Weaver signing was a bad signing at the time it happened, not one single person.

 

We all liked the Weaver signing at the time. I don't remember anyone complaining about it

[Redondo]

The downfall of the Angels (which I think is incredibly silly considering where this team was prior to 2002 historically) is the inability the last several years to draft and develop players. You can all say, well if we wouldn't have signed this guy or if we wouldn't have signed that guy, or if we had just offered a QO to this guy, but that isn't it. How bout you draft guys in the 2nd round that make an impact in the majors. How bout we spend money internationally? How bout we run a program down in the Dominican that is run on integrity, rather than stay away because you aren't comfortable with the way things work down there. Instead change the way things are done. Position players worth a damn that we drafted in the last 10 years, Trout, Calhoun. Am I missing anyone? Grichuk. Two were first round picks in the same draft the other was a fifth round pick. Come on Angels how bout a 2nd round pick that comes up and is an everyday starter. Or how bout you draft pitchers that we can trade for position players. That is the downfall of the Angels, not spending money on free agency, it is HAVING to spend money on free agency.

 

Very well put. 

[Glen]

Sosh big fat ego after his goat coaching staff departed

Say that again, but in English.

On second thought, never mind.

[Second Base]

Bigger picture, it seems like the Angels have made a lot of really bad moves and two really good ones (drafting Trout, and the Trumbo trade).

I think a series of smaller, smarter moves could help this team, though I'm not sure how much.

[Angelsjunky]

LOL, that's pretty funny.

 

On a serious note, there is little doubt in my mind that the franchise is in crisis and that there's little sign that it is turning in the right direction. This was what was so alluring about Jerry Dipoto - he at least talked a good talk, with his strategy of strengthening the organization long-term while remaining competitive, although it is questionable as to whether he was really able to do that. He gets mixed reviews, in my mind. In the end, he didn't adequately address the main problem of this team: the farm system.

 

The problem is that there are no quick fixes. I'd agree with Stradling that a major aspect of the problem is the org's inability to draft quality position players, not to mention develop them. The farm needs a complete overhaul, in my opinion. I'd rather see Arte put his money into international scouting and player development than more quick-fix options. There are plenty of teams that don't get high draft picks but still have excellent farm systems - that comes from intelligent drafting.

 

Right now, the Angels are probably an 80-85 win team. Signing one of the expensive left-fielders would have turned it into an 83-88 win team. Maybe Arte doesn't feel like that's worth $20-25M extra a year. Maybe he looks at the free agent outfielders and isn't wowed by any of them, recognizing that they're all very good players but none of them are truly elite hitters; its hard to want to spend that kind of money on players that can't reach an OPS of at least .850. Maybe he also realizes that an 80-85 win team can win 90 games if things come together in the right way. Everyone looks at the Royals - Arte could be thinking, "Hey, they're not that much more talented. How did they win a World Series?"

 

All that said, I think we're going to see Eppler trade a pitcher or two for a hitter or two. What will happen is that one of Santiago, Shoemaker, or Wilson will be gone before Opening Day and we'll have a younger, decent left fielder with some upside, although not star caliber. To be honest, I'm not unhappy if the Angels choose not to throw more money at the ongoing problem of the organization, and start downsizing a bit and re-building from within. There's enough talent on the team as it is to remain competitive for the next five years, if the right tweaks are made here and there.

 

Here's another thought: Rather than focus on how to win in the "Trout window" of five years, why not focus on how to make the organization a powerhouse so that in five years Trout won't want to leave?

Edited December 17, 2015 by Angelsjunky

[NorCal Halo]

Here's another thought: Rather than focus on how to win in the "Trout window" of five years, why not focus on how to make the organization a powerhouse so that in five years Trout won't want to leave.

Well said.

[TroutField]

LOL, that's pretty funny.

On a serious note, there is little doubt in my mind that the franchise is in crisis and that there's little sign that it is turning in the right direction. This was what was so alluring about Jerry Dipoto - he at least talked a good talk, with his strategy of strengthening the organization long-term while remaining competitive, although it is questionable as to whether he was really able to do that. He gets mixed reviews, in my mind. In the end, he didn't adequately address the main problem of this team: the farm system.

The problem is that there are no quick fixes. I'd agree with Stradling that a major aspect of the problem is the org's inability to draft quality position players, not to mention develop them. The farm needs a complete overhaul, in my opinion. I'd rather see Arte put his money into international scouting and player development than more quick-fix options. There are plenty of teams that don't get high draft picks but still have excellent farm systems - that comes from intelligent drafting.

Right now, the Angels are probably an 80-85 win team. Signing one of the expensive left-fielders would have turned it into an 83-88 win team. Maybe Arte doesn't feel like that's worth $20-25M extra a year. Maybe he looks at the free agent outfielders and isn't wowed by any of them, recognizing that they're all very good players but none of them are truly elite hitters; its hard to want to spend that kind of money on players that can't reach an OPS of at least .850. Maybe he also realizes that an 80-85 win team can win 90 games if things come together in the right way. Everyone looks at the Royals - Arte could be thinking, "Hey, they're not that much more talented. How did they win a World Series?"

All that said, I think we're going to see Eppler trade a pitcher or two for a hitter or two. What will happen is that one of Santiago, Shoemaker, or Wilson will be gone before Opening Day and we'll have a younger, decent left fielder with some upside, although not star caliber. To be honest, I'm not unhappy if the Angels choose not to throw more money at the ongoing problem of the organization, and start downsizing a bit and re-building from within. There's enough talent on the team as it is to remain competitive for the next five years, if the right tweaks are made here and there.

Here's another thought: Rather than focus on how to win in the "Trout window" of five years, why not focus on how to make the organization a powerhouse so that in five years Trout won't want to leave?

This is really well written and I hope this is the way the organization is heading. If they don't sign a premier left fielder, focus on the farm and international market, and get a STARTING left fielder that's young for Wilson or Santiago I'm totally on board. Enough with the platoon BS, give me a break Arte.

[Ohtaniland]

Would signing another long term deal really make a difference at this point? Yes, if you sign the right guy. You keep bringing up the Royals, well the Royals were awful for 30 years, 30! They drafted at the top of the draft every year for a very long time. They are in that sweet spot of where all the talent came up and isn't getting paid yet. They had the talent to go make trades for guys like Zobrist, Cueto and Wade Davis. The Angels do not have the talent to make those trades. Oh and I am pretty sure that in 2016 Morales will make over $10 million. So the team that just won the World Series for them have three players that will be making over $10 million, Morales, Zobrist and Cueto.

You keep missing two points. One this is the last year they have Wilson and Weaver on the team, so after this year that clears about $40 million in salary. This team could compete for the playoffs this year. Next year when they have $40 million in tax space the free agent class will be awful compared to this year. Albert is here to stay which sucks because it means 6 more years of you posting, "Albert was suppose to put this team on his back". That is your narrative not Arte's or the Angels. I am sure the team hoped to get more good years out of Albert, but carrying them to a title was only part of why he was brought here. The second point is why spend $170 million on an average product, when you can spend $20 million more and possibly compete for a title, at the very least be in the playoff discussion.

Why do you add Weaver to the same list as free agent signings. There wasn't a person alive that thought the Weaver signing was a bad signing at the time it happened, not one single person.

Strad my narrative was spot on. Arte had already over extended the budget while getting very little in return from the high priced guys. I said that he was fed up with the fail. I don't blame Arte for drawing a line in the sand. At some point the players need to be held accountable for underperforming. Arte's reaction to this years FA's is directly related to that. He spent tons of money and got no playoff wins since 2009. Now he's paying for a train wreck. Lesson learned.

[Stradling]

His return on investment was 3 million fans a season. Also his money spending was on over the age of 30 bats, there were two now there is one under the age of 30 "impact" bat on the market. This train wreck was one game away from the playoffs last year, so whatever. If you want to hold players accountable for under-performing then have a roster that is capable of replacing under performing players with players capable of performing better. We don't and have not had that in years.

[Angel Oracle]

We all liked the Weaver signing at the time. I don't remember anyone complaining about it

Exactly, and even Wilson's contract wasn't that bad, given how good he was in 2010-11 and only 31 in 2012.

[Angel Oracle]

Why is Arte Moreno so insistent on not investing in long term solutions like scouting and development coaching???????

[zenmaster]

I vote we start stockpiling draft picks and build from the ground up. It sucks but I think this would be the best option right now. I feel bad that trout is part of this mess.

[Ohtaniland]

His return on investment was 3 million fans a season. Also his money spending was on over the age of 30 bats, there were two now there is one under the age of 30 "impact" bat on the market. This train wreck was one game away from the playoffs last year, so whatever. If you want to hold players accountable for under-performing then have a roster that is capable of replacing under performing players with players capable of performing better. We don't and have not had that in years.

3 million fans is what he got. Then that's on the fans (including myself) for buying into the hype of overpaid free agents. Arte did everything he could do even if he made mistakes along the way. He does not want to go over the luxury tax and that's his decision. We the fans shouldn't get butthurt because of it. We still have Trout, Calhoun, Simmons, Escobar and some good young pitching. To say that Arte is preventing us from winning because he won't sign another long term crazy contract is wrong.

[Stradling]

3 million fans is what he got. Then that's on the fans (including myself) for buying into the hype of overpaid free agents. Arte did everything he could do even if he made mistakes along the way. He does not want to go over the luxury tax and that's his decision. We the fans shouldn't get butthurt because of it. We still have Trout, Calhoun, Simmons, Escobar and some good young pitching. To say that Arte is preventing us from winning because he won't sign another long term crazy contract is wrong.

I'm one of the few Arte fans left but to ignore his shortcomings is silly. This team needs another bat. You can blame Arte not just for Josh Hamilton but for the state of the minor leagues. The least he could do is continue to invest in free agency to make up for his mistakes. If he doesn't want to sign a guy to a 7 year deal then overpay for four or five years. Also the term Long Term Crazy Contract is just your own bias towards free agency. Cubs didn't have a problem with it, Giants didn't have a problem with it, Boston didn't have a problem with it. If you want to compete on the biggest scale you make good free agent signings. It is part of having a $150 million annual TV contract.

[stormngt]

We all liked the Weaver signing at the time. I don't remember anyone complaining about it

Weavers contract was and still is a bargain. Granted it doesn't look good this year but he more than earned his contract.

[YouthofToday]

The Pujols signing was going to be a failure if we didn't win a World Series in the first 4 years of the deal. That contract will go down as the worst in MLB history.

Arte's tirade against Hamilton was ludicrous. He could have been an excellent platoon bat in LF with upside.

Arte gets in the way far too much. Let baseball people make baseball decisions. It isn't hard.

[UndertheHalo]

Why is Arte Moreno so insistent on not investing in long term solutions like scouting and development coaching???????

AO, how do you know that he has made a decision to not utilize good scouts by refusing to pay the price necessary ? I'm not saying you are wrong but I'd like to know how you know that. As far as I know (and I've complained about it on here) they are seemingly not involved seriously in Latin America and Asia. I know part of it is that they don't want to deal with some of the nefarious elements of that business, but I was never under the impression that it was a financial decision entirely. I've never heard that domestic scouting was hamstrung by lack of budget. The Angels have definitely done poorly in the drafts and that seemingly indicates poor scouting. Again tho what evidence is there that it's because Arte won't shell out the money for better scouts ? Seems to me that it's just guys that haven't done a good job.

It's just hard for me to believe that a smart dude like Arte is gonna be drawing the line on guys who might get 70-100 grand a year who are intimately involved in the life blood of his billion dollar business.

Edited December 17, 2015 by UndertheHalo