Is Scott Kazmir living proof, Butcher is worthless ?

[joeywings]

10 wins already this year.

[nate]

He is living proof that giving big contracts to lazy asses is a bad idea.

[tdawg87]

This thread is going to the moon.

[Chuck]

Wins is a meaningless stat. 

 

Have a sit down with Rick Heiling and Aaron Sele when with the Rangers. 

[Blarg]

Can you guys stop with the troll posts. Kazmir was a headcase for the Rays and ineffective before and after Butcher left the Rays. He was out of baseball two years because he couldn't pitch. So stop with this stupid shit.

[T.G.]

This board never disappoints.

[DW711]

You can't have it both ways.

 

Richards has looked great, Jepsen is better, etc...

[full circle]

Look at his delivery now. It's much more athletic and powerful now. The angels tried to get him to throw strikes by taking out everything that made him a good pitcher. Hopefully they learned their lesson.

[Guest]

 

You can't have it both ways.

 

Richards has looked great, Jepsen is better, etc...

 

Hard to infer anything from these unless Richards et al change teams. 

 

Look at his delivery now. It's much more athletic and powerful now. The angels tried to get him to throw strikes by taking out everything that made him a good pitcher. Hopefully they learned their lesson.

You also have the case of Fernando Rodney, who even specifically blamed Butcher in the media for forcing him to change his pitching mechanics in unnatural ways. Has an unblelievably good 2012, but even after "returning to earth" he is still significantly better than he was with the Angels. 

Edited July 7, 2014 by ScottLux

[Jay]

Butcher is proof that the Angels don't want to win!

[2002_halos_II]

Kaz is a dork

[full circle]

You never ever ever sacrifice stuff for accuracy. If you are missing wildly the answer is just to be patient and learn to trust your mechanics and command them with muscle memory, not make wholesale changes to what comes naturally. I absolutely blame Butcher for his role in Kazmir taking a step back.

Edited July 7, 2014 by full circle

[tdawg87]

You never ever ever sacrifice stuff for accuracy. If you are missing wildly the answer is just to be patient and learn to trust your mechanics and command them with muscle memory, not make wholesale changes to what comes naturally. I absolutely blame Butcher for his role in Kazmir taking a step back.

 

But then do you credit Butcher for him having success in Tampa?

[Season Over]

I credit the A's magic pitching pixie dust more than I blame Butcher.

[jshep]

But then do you credit Butcher for him having success in Tampa?

 

Scott Kazmir credited Butcher for Scott Kazmir having success in Tampa!

[Chuck]

This board never disappoints.

This!

[Chuck]

Scott Kazmir credited Butcher for Scott Kazmir having success in Tampa!

Yep.

I have this on audio still from Safeco Field way back when the Mariners allowed us into the press box and clubhouse until a M's blogger (probably SB Nation dude) blew it for us all.

[full circle]

But then do you credit Butcher for him having success in Tampa?

He didn't learn his mechanics from Butcher in Tampa.  He developed his explosive mechanics as a kid with his dad or pitching coach or little league coach or whatever and his hard work honed them into an MLB pitcher.  He came to Butcher an already incredibly talented player, so no, Butcher gets no credit for his success in Tampa, all Butcher had to do was get out of the way and watch.  

[tdawg87]

lol

[nate]

So he is living proof that his Dad is a good pitching coach?

 

I am confused.

[full circle]

lol

Why?

[Don]

I don't think Butcher is a particularly good pitching coach, but you can't blame him for what happened to Kazmir in Anaheim. He was 25 years old when he got here, and already had over 730 major league innings under his belt. IMO, he was way overworked as a young pitcher, which led to minor injuries, which led to mechanical adjustments, which ultimately led to a performance spiral. Getting a long time off, refinding his mechanics, then building himself back up slowly is what resurrected his career. Give the dude credit for his hard work, but don't blame Butcher for failing to turn around a guy who had been worked like a mule from 18-25.

[full circle]

So he is living proof that his Dad is a good pitching coach?

 

I am confused.

Lol what?  He's living proof that he's a very talented athlete and he was one way before he ever got to Tampa.  I'd be willing to bet that Kazmir isn't quick to credit Butcher for the success he's having now.  

[ukyah]

no, and don't believe your teacher that there are  no stupid questions. i'm not a butcher fan at all, but suggestions such as these make the assertion seem stupid. it's an unfair criticism of butcher. kazmir has sucked for years.

[tdawg87]

Why?

 

Kazmir himself credited Butcher for much of his success in Tampa. 2009 is when Kaz lost his ability to pitch (in Tampa, 2 years after Butcher had left). He came over and had success in his short time with the Angels that year, but it was obviously a fluke because he picked up exactly where he left off with the Rays in 2010.

 

Then he was out of baseball for basically 2 years. Then came back to Cleveland to marginal success. Then Oakland picked him up, put whatever it is they put in their washed-up has-beens cereal, and he's magically an all star again.

 

You can't blame Butcher for Kazmir sucking with the Angels, because he literally was just as bad when he left Tampa Bay. He was broken at that point.