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Is Scott Kazmir living proof, Butcher is worthless ?


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He had more than marginal success in Cleveland. He actually was showing much better strikeout potential last year compared to this season. The reason why his ERA is much lower this year compared to last is because the Indians have a garbage defense and the A's have one of the best

 

I don't recall what changed the ANgels made to his mechanics(don't even remember if this was a story back then), but quick glance shows the reason why he sucked here was because he lost like 5 mph on all of his pitches. Dude was topping out at 88 MPH. Now? He's back to hitting 91-94 mph

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"I knew something was wrong," Kazmir said of his compromised velocity. "I wasn't using any of my lower half. And that's why everything was so erratic, why I was throwing balls behind right-handed batters, just because everything turned side-to-side, I couldn't get behind the ball. There was so much strength that wasn't being used at that point in time."

Kazmir ultimately experienced his eureka moment not with a major league pitching coach, or even with the Sugarland Skeeters, but pitching by himself in a bullpen session behind his house in Cypress, Texas last summer. But it came simply through trial and error.

"It was not like I had a person that I would go to, or some video to say, 'Okay, this is what I need to get back to'," Kazmir said, since he'd never had a unifying strategy. "It was all knowing that I was capable of doing what I'd done in the past years, but at the same time, knowing that I'd have to start very slow, from square one, put the pieces together, and know it's not going to happen overnight."

 

 

It's hard to know if anyone could have helped this guy until he was ready to help himself.  

 

Honestly, I have no idea what effect butcher has had on any of the pitching staff.  Some guys have progressed appropriately.  Some guys have ended up a total disaster.  He seems to help the younger less established guy more than the veterans but there are obviously holes in that theory. 

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Kazmir himself credited Butcher for much of his success in Tampa. 2009 is when Kaz lost his ability to pitch (in Tampa, 2 years after Butcher had left). He came over and had success in his short time with the Angels that year, but it was obviously a fluke because he picked up exactly where he left off with the Rays in 2010.

 

Then he was out of baseball for basically 2 years. Then came back to Cleveland to marginal success. Then Oakland picked him up, put whatever it is they put in their washed-up has-beens cereal, and he's magically an all star again.

 

You can't blame Butcher for Kazmir sucking with the Angels, because he literally was just as bad when he left Tampa Bay. He was broken at that point.

His career path is just crazy. He was a two-time All Star by the time he hit 24, then became one of the worst starters in the league for two years, then was out of the game for two years, and is now an All Star again at age 30.

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"I knew something was wrong," Kazmir said of his compromised velocity. "I wasn't using any of my lower half. And that's why everything was so erratic, why I was throwing balls behind right-handed batters, just because everything turned side-to-side, I couldn't get behind the ball. There was so much strength that wasn't being used at that point in time."

Kazmir ultimately experienced his eureka moment not with a major league pitching coach, or even with the Sugarland Skeeters, but pitching by himself in a bullpen session behind his house in Cypress, Texas last summer. But it came simply through trial and error.

"It was not like I had a person that I would go to, or some video to say, 'Okay, this is what I need to get back to'," Kazmir said, since he'd never had a unifying strategy. "It was all knowing that I was capable of doing what I'd done in the past years, but at the same time, knowing that I'd have to start very slow, from square one, put the pieces together, and know it's not going to happen overnight."

 

 

It's hard to know if anyone could have helped this guy until he was ready to help himself.  

 

Honestly, I have no idea what effect butcher has had on any of the pitching staff.  Some guys have progressed appropriately.  Some guys have ended up a total disaster.  He seems to help the younger less established guy more than the veterans but there are obviously holes in that theory.

This is why I say that so much credit has to go to Kazmir himself. He basically got shown the door out of MLB, took some time off, then got down to business and worked his ass off to get it all back together. You've gotta respect that.

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Kazmir is an All Star again........

 

Halos really gave him a chance.........don't know what happened -- but Butcher has nothing to do with his resurgence.

 

Kazmir was a head case.

 

My theory is that he couldn't pitch well once he got a decent contract.

 

now that he's hungry again, he's pitching fairly well -- if this leads to another big contract (and if it does, it won't be with the A's), expect him to pitch more like he did in that last season with the Halos....

 

the Halos gave Kazmir every shot -- he couldn't get anyone out at the end of his time in Anaheim..........starter, set up guy, .long relief -- he was ineffective in every role the Halos put him in.

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It's hard to know if anyone could have helped this guy until he was ready to help himself.  

 

Bingo. Baseball players aren't machines that all you need to do is fix them and they'll work. They're human beings, so a lot of their issues are psychological. Scott Kazmir seemingly had to hit rock bottom before he could rebuild himself. Kudos to him for doing so.

 

We all give too much blame (and credit) to management.

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Have not really watched any of Kazmir's starts this year for the A's --- has he regained the velocity he once had?

 

My take on Kazmir when he lost his velocity and the Halos were trying to work with him to become a real pitcher as opposed to the fireballer thrower he had always been from before even his prospect days with the New York Mets, but Kazmir didn't seem to have the work ethic and disciplined mind to successfully make the conversion.........

 

one of the best examples (ever, IMO) of a pitcher successfully making the conversion from a fireballing strike out pitcher to finesse pitcher with enough velocity left to mix and match well with a change of pace pitch and hitting spots was Frank Tanana.......Frank Tanana wound up with something close to 250 MLB pitching wins.......many of them after he hurt his arm.........not sure if Tanana had Tommy John surgery or not, that would have been about the same time the procedure would have been performed on Tommy John -- but Tanana had an amazing Tommy John like career : Fireballer days and then post-injury finesse days and he may have won more games after the injury.........Tanana was a hard worker......he learned to pitch rather than throw and really had a great career. His career numbers stand the test of time and look even more impressive today........

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SoCALkid -- I liked the trade (with Tampa Bay) at the time -- didn't know about his 'work ethic' issues -- just saw that his strike out totals seemed to always be among the league leaders for a 2 or 3 season stretch there and then there was that hype when he was a NY Mets up and comer.

 

But I have to agree with your characterization of Kazmir -- that's pretty much how I saw him without much documented support for it, other than what I saw of him pitch during his struggles with the Angels......just looking at him pitch, he didn't seem to have his heart in the game and had a real nonchalant attitude -- 'oh well, I got bombed again, at least my checks are still rolling in'

 

it was the attitude that got me the most........I root for most ex-Halos -- there are exceptions over the years (Mo Vaughn, Scott Schoeneweis, Mark Teixira, John Lackey and a few others) but Kazmir's attitude with the Halos pretty much was it for me...........I am actually kind of ticked he's on the All Star team and, so far, Richards is not.

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SoCALkid -- I liked the trade (with Tampa Bay) at the time -- didn't know about his 'work ethic' issues -- just saw that his strike out totals seemed to always be among the league leaders for a 2 or 3 season stretch there and then there was that hype when he was a NY Mets up and comer.

 

But I have to agree with your characterization of Kazmir -- that's pretty much how I saw him without much documented support for it, other than what I saw of him pitch during his struggles with the Angels......just looking at him pitch, he didn't seem to have his heart in the game and had a real nonchalant attitude -- 'oh well, I got bombed again, at least my checks are still rolling in'

 

it was the attitude that got me the most........I root for most ex-Halos -- there are exceptions over the years (Mo Vaughn, Scott Schoeneweis, Mark Teixira, John Lackey and a few others) but Kazmir's attitude with the Halos pretty much was it for me...........I am actually kind of ticked he's on the All Star team and, so far, Richards is not.

Kazmir's attitude with the Halos pretty much was it for me...........I am actually kind of ticked he's on the All Star team and, so far, Richards is not.

 

Pretty hard to swallow

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Kazmir himself credited Butcher for much of his success in Tampa. 2009 is when Kaz lost his ability to pitch (in Tampa, 2 years after Butcher had left). He came over and had success in his short time with the Angels that year, but it was obviously a fluke because he picked up exactly where he left off with the Rays in 2010.

Then he was out of baseball for basically 2 years. Then came back to Cleveland to marginal success. Then Oakland picked him up, put whatever it is they put in their washed-up has-beens cereal, and he's magically an all star again.

You can't blame Butcher for Kazmir sucking with the Angels, because he literally was just as bad when he left Tampa Bay. He was

broken at that point.

Appreciate the recap, but I am already well aware of Kazmirs career arc.

I base my opinion of Butcher not only on the results of our pitching staff but on his own statements of what he believes in with regards to mechanics.

Having a son who's a pitcher, I've spent a good deal of time studying pitching mechanics and philosophies. Butcher is a very traditional pitching coach who regurgitates the same tired cliches as the ones his coaches probably taught him. Because of this, he was unable to help a guy like Kazmir, who I'd bet good money, butch never liked his "violent" mechanics anyway. Then problems start, and it becomes a good way to start changing the stuff he doesn't like. Then kazmir gradually gets worse.

Not a surprise at all that kaz had to go outside the mlb inner circle to a more cutting edge guy like Ron Wolforth to get himself back on track. Butcher was completely useless to him.

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