Bourjos traded to Cardinals

[Inside Pitch]

5 hours ago, nando714 said:

Girchuk is nothing more than a career 4th OFer 

Career 785 OPS....  Bad OBP skills but 66 HRs and a career OPS+ of 107 through his age 25 season.  7 WAR in under 1300 at bats.   Career positive oWAR, career positive dWAR...  Sure wish we could find a 4th OFer that could pile those numbers up in what amounts to 2+ seasons...  I mean, Ben Revere has managed 6.3 bWAR in 8 years and pver 3100 at bats.

BTW -- just for giggles..   Mike Moustakas through his age 25 season -- 668 OPS, OPS+ of 82, 4.5 WAR, 1830 ABs...  even now his career OPS is .730 to Grichuk's .785.

Grichuk is basically Moustakas only he's both been better and worse (OBP).

[Inside Pitch]

 

2 hours ago, ettin said:

I will say though that the trade really hasn't worked out for either side. The Cardinals are very likely going to trade Grichuk this off-season so both teams extracted marginal value out of the trade.

Cards got what is basically 3 more WAR for league minimum... just out of Grichuk plus whatever they might get should they trade him.   They got a shit ton of excess value out of that deal...  

[nando714]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

Career 785 OPS....  Bad OBP skills but 66 HRs and a career OPS+ of 107 through his age 25 season.  7 WAR in under 1300 at bats.   Career positive oWAR, career positive dWAR...  Sure wish we could find a 4th OFer that could pile those numbers up in what amounts to 2+ seasons...  I mean, Ben Revere has managed 6.3 bWAR in 8 years and pver 3100 at bats.

BTW -- just for giggles..   Mike Moustakas through his age 25 season -- 668 OPS, OPS+ of 82, 4.5 WAR, 1830 ABs...  even now his career OPS is .730 to Grichuk's .785.

Grichuk is basically Moustakas only he's both been better and worse (OBP).

Yet the cardinals don’t trust him with full time at bats so they traded for ozuna to go with Pham and Fowler 

[JarsOfClay]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

 

Cards got what is basically 3 more WAR for league minimum... just out of Grichuk plus whatever they might get should they trade him.   They got a shit ton of excess value out of that deal...  

Yep, spot on.  I cant believe some people think the trade was a wash.

8 minutes ago, nando714 said:

Yet the cardinals don’t trust him with full time at bats so they traded for ozuna to go with Pham and Fowler 

Im sure the angels would love to have the cardinals problem.  A young 26 year old OF with good defense and offense, about to enter his prime 27 year old season where most young guys break out.

They can use that narrative to package him and get something in return or just keep him and hope he realizes his potential.  .

At the very worst he would make an excellent 4 OF, but I personally believe he will be better than that.

[Inside Pitch]

37 minutes ago, nando714 said:

Yet the cardinals don’t trust him with full time at bats so they traded for ozuna to go with Pham and Fowler 

And?  

The Angels onced moved Darin Erstad to 1B...  Did you think he was a 4th OFer?    A surplus of talent at one position doesn't mean a player sucks -- pretty simple concept.

You can try to paint it however you want -- the reality is he's better than anyone we have had in LF in recent years and would have easily been starting out there over all of them...   It's not hard to find teams he could slot in as an everyday OFer right now..  

BTW..  in four years..  Grichuk will be as old as Pham was when he finally broke out..    Pham was 27 years old when he finally stuck...   

 

 

[Inside Pitch]

19 minutes ago, JarsOfClay said:

Yep, spot on.  I cant believe some people think the trade was a wash.

Im sure the angels would love to have the cardinals problem.  A young 26 year old OF with good defense and offense, about to enter his prime 27 year old season where most young guys break out.

They can use that narrative to package him and get something in return or just keep him and hope he realizes his potential.  .

At the very worst he would make an excellent 4 OF, but I personally believe he will be better than that.

He's actually entering his age 26 season...   Dude still has breakout potential, still has upside -- he's just a hack.   Again, like Moustakas.

[AngelsLakersFan]

We really could’ve used Grichuk in left field ever since hambone fell off the wagon.

[Blarg]

Or Bourjos.

[ettin]

6 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

 

Cards got what is basically 3 more WAR for league minimum... just out of Grichuk plus whatever they might get should they trade him.   They got a shit ton of excess value out of that deal...  

I'm speaking from a totality standpoint for both teams. Even that min value wasn't a "tremendous" return. Just my opinion. I certainly think the Cardinals got more than the Angels but it wasn't an excessive or game-changing amount to me.

[arch stanton]

At the time the deal was made, Grichuk hadn't yet played a ML game and wasn't likely to be counted on for 2014 so the trade to get Freese and a ML capable reliever made sense in terms of immediate return but you have to think he could have gotten a better pitcher than Salas or traded a lesser prospect than Grichuk if Salas was all they would part with

[Tank]

17 minutes ago, arch stanton said:

At the time the deal was made, Grichuk hadn't yet played a ML game and wasn't likely to be counted on for 2014 so the trade to get Freese and a ML capable reliever made sense in terms of immediate return but you have to think he could have gotten a better pitcher than Salas or traded a lesser prospect than Grichuk if Salas was all they would part with

man, this was one of those deals where it would've been nice if doc brown would've let us fire up the delorean . . . 

[ten ocho recon scout]

15 minutes ago, Tank said:

man, this was one of those deals where it would've been nice if doc brown would've let us fire up the delorean . . . 

Except dipoto wouldnt have stopped his mom.

[Tank]

1 minute ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Except dipoto wouldnt have stopped his mom.

dipoto would have been a stupid calvin klein.

[gurn67]

On 11/23/2013 at 3:39 AM, gurn67 said:

Added salary and made things worse.

I Didn't realize I was summing up the Dipoto years in just 6 words.

[Inside Pitch]

4 hours ago, ettin said:

I'm speaking from a totality standpoint for both teams. Even that min value wasn't a "tremendous" return. Just my opinion. I certainly think the Cardinals got more than the Angels but it wasn't an excessive or game-changing amount to me.

Oh, I get where you're coming from..  it's not Lou Brock redux, but there is no denying the Cards ended up ahead and the gap could potentially widen.   In the end my issue then and now was how badly JD undervalued Grichuk.   

[Inside Pitch]

36 minutes ago, Throwman91 said:

Why the dislike JarsofClay? you think Grichuk is gonna be some kind of all-star?  Remember he's an OFer, he is expected to whack around 20 HRs a year, just like most OFers.  Except he bats around .240.

So..  just sticking to your criteria...

Of the 90 potential starting OF spots in MLB only 38 hit at least 20 HRs -- of those 38, 11 had batting averages in the 240s.    So all told less than one third of the possible OF spots in MLB were manned by OFers who hit better than .250 and had at least 20 HRs.  Of the 38 OFers that did hit at least 20 HRs only Mike Trout (402), and Michael Comforto (373), did so in fewer at bats than did Grichuk (412).  Guess that means a shit ton of OFs failed to live up to expectation eh?   

More importantly...  The Angels spent 13 mil on LF, then traded for Upton to try improve on what they had already spent 13 mil on...   Including Upton and his late season infusion of power, the Angels LFers combined for 14 HRs and a .243 average..   Grichuk made 550K last year, can play a passable CF and has the arm to play in RF...   

Dude doesn't have to be an all star to represent a decent value.   

[nando714]

13 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

And?  

The Angels onced moved Darin Erstad to 1B...  Did you think he was a 4th OFer?    A surplus of talent at one position doesn't mean a player sucks -- pretty simple concept.

You can try to paint it however you want -- the reality is he's better than anyone we have had in LF in recent years and would have easily been starting out there over all of them...   It's not hard to find teams he could slot in as an everyday OFer right now..  

BTW..  in four years..  Grichuk will be as old as Pham was when he finally broke out..    Pham was 27 years old when he finally stuck...   

 

 

Grichuk was expendable. Hamilton was a complete bust, if he was anything near what he was supposed to be then many of wouldn’t care about grichuk being shipped away. 

Obviously Hamilton shitting the bed hamstrung the franchise money wise. I think you would have been an upgrade in left field over Joyce, nava, Victorino, etc...

And the cardinals had grichuk as a projected starter before trading for ozuna , so I don’t think they thought they a surplus of “talent” before making the trade. 

The trade is 4 years old and grichuk didn’t cost the angels anything. Justin Upton is now our left fielder. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

4 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Oh, I get where you're coming from..  it's not Lou Brock redux, but there is no denying the Cards ended up ahead and the gap could potentially widen.   In the end my issue then and now was how badly JD undervalued Grichuk.   

Well, to be fair, with the emergence of zach borenstein, grichuk was expendable.

[ten ocho recon scout]

3 hours ago, Throwman91 said:

That averages out to well over 1 guy in the OF per team capable of hitting over 20 homers, it's just not that special.  His career .289 OBP doesn't do him any favors either.  He's basically a poor man's Trumbo in the OF.

And maybe thats all hes ever going to be. But, the f*ckup on our end is that a grichuk or a trumbo for less than a million is still a way better value than anything weve had since the trade, before upton.

If say we dont make that trade, grichuk with those numbers for less than a million is still a lot better than what we got out of david robinson. And nava. And victorino. And joyce.

Grichuk hasnt broken out, maybe never does, and now with upton its a closed chapter. But its one of those moves that we bit us in the ass later. Grichuk and cash left over in to sign a better than salas reliever is better than victorino (and company) plus salas.

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, nando714 said:

The trade is 4 years old and grichuk didn’t cost the angels anything.

Nothing but wins and money......   

[ten ocho recon scout]

10 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Nothing but wins and money......   

Thats the cover sheet for the reports boras sends teams when hes shopping clients.

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, Throwman91 said:

That averages out to well over 1 guy in the OF per team capable of hitting over 20 homers, it's just not that special.  His career .289 OBP doesn't do him any favors either.  He's basically a poor man's Trumbo in the OF.

It takes a special kind of person to see their argument be completely shredded and still think they proved a point....  

Trumbo btw is entering his age 32 season... Can't play defense, can't run, has produced 9.0 bWAR in his career.   Trumbo is an example of a player who does one thing very well.   Grichuk one who does one thing very poorly.   The fact you think Grichuk is the lesser player is well.... Special.

[Blarg]

29 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Nothing but wins and money......   

The loss of wins and money was Hamilton's fault. 

The Angels needed a third baseman, that was a fact. Freese gave the Angels a 3.8 war over two years at the cost of about $11 million. That was actually a good return. 

Salas the first season was actually ok when you look at ERA and peripherals. At the time we had Street, Smith, Jepsen, Morin and Grili all pitching at the top of their game so Salas stood out simply because he wasn't perfect. But he was above league average. 

You trade for needs at times and from surplus. Grichuk was surplus when you've locked in the outfield for four years with Trout, Hamilton and Calhoun and have no infield prospects.

The linchpin to this trade being successful was Hamilton. It wasn't what Grichuk developed into, which for now still isn't fulfilled potential.

[Inside Pitch]

37 minutes ago, Blarg said:

The loss of wins and money was Hamilton's fault. 

The Angels needed a third baseman, that was a fact. Freese gave the Angels a 3.8 war over two years at the cost of about $11 million. That was actually a good return. 

Salas the first season was actually ok when you look at ERA and peripherals. At the time we had Street, Smith, Jepsen, Morin and Grili all pitching at the top of their game so Salas stood out simply because he wasn't perfect. But he was above league average. 

You trade for needs at times and from surplus. Grichuk was surplus when you've locked in the outfield for four years with Trout, Hamilton and Calhoun and have no infield prospects.

The linchpin to this trade being successful was Hamilton. It wasn't what Grichuk developed into, which for now still isn't fulfilled potential.

This is a good post....  I think you're glossing over some things but, I don't disagree with the general concept of the Angels having been trying to address a need and I saw no issue with the PB end of the deal. 

FTR..  My belief has always been that the motivation for this trade was Cowart's failure to develop...    That was what set the whole thing into motion IMO.    But the issue for me then and now is the same -- we supposedly had this forward thinking saber inclined GM who was also said to be well versed in the scouting end of the game and yet he pissed away a legit asset.   It was the loss of value that chapped me.  Grichuk was more than what he was moved for.

It was on the saber end, ie... predictive stats, age related to league, and the park effects, that hinted he was better than what one would think by simply looking at traditional counting stats.   Trading him wasn't the issue..   using him as a throw in to get a Salas type was...   Salas was the sort of guy a good GM acquires for nothing..  as proof of that.... Billy Eppler did.   Both Salas and Freese were non-tender candidates...  Jerry Dipoto showed up to the talks with a visible hard on and got taken.

It was a bad deal at hello and it only got worse when Hamilton went off the rails...    

[stormngt]

9 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

This is a good post....  I think you're glossing over some things but, I don't disagree with the general concept of the Angels having been trying to address a need and I saw no issue with the PB end of the deal. 

FTR..  My belief has always been that the motivation for this trade was Cowart's failure to develop...    That was what set the whole thing into motion IMO.    But the issue for me then and now is the same -- we supposedly had this forward thinking saber inclined GM who was also supposedly well versed in the scouting end of the game and who was supposed to be smarter than what we had previously had, and yet he pissed away a legit asset.  

It was on the saber end, ie... predictive stats, age related to leagu,e and the park effects, that hinted he was better than what one would think by simply looking at traditional counting stats.   Trading him wasn't the issue..   using him as a throw in to get a Salas type was...   Salas was the sort of guy a good GM acquires for nothing..  as proof of that.  Billy Eppler did.   Both Salas and Freese were non-tender candidates...  Jerry Dipoto showed up to the talks with a visible hard on and got taken.

It was a bad deal at hello and it only got worse when Hamilton went off the rails...    

I think the motivation of the trade was the flip of Brandon Wood and not lack of development of Cowart.  This was four years ago and Brandon Wood was the star of the future and Cowart was still pretty young.