Bourjos traded to Cardinals

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, stormngt said:

I think the motivation of the trade was the flip of Brandon Wood and not lack of development of Cowart.  This was four years ago and Brandon Wood was the star of the future and Cowart was still pretty young. 

The Brandon Wood experiment was over by 2010 and he was gone in 2011 before JD showed up...    The Freese trade happened prior to the 2015 season -- four years after Cowart had been drafted.   

Cowart was viewed a top 100 prospects as late as prior to the 2013 in which he completely cratered...   When he repeated the awfulness in 2014 it pretty much meant the Angels had to look elsewhere for their future 3B.

[Blarg]

25 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

This is a good post....  I think you're glossing over some things but, I don't disagree with the general concept of the Angels having been trying to address a need and I saw no issue with the PB end of the deal. 

FTR..  My belief has always been that the motivation for this trade was Cowart's failure to develop...    That was what set the whole thing into motion IMO.    But the issue for me then and now is the same -- we supposedly had this forward thinking saber inclined GM who was also supposedly well versed in the scouting end of the game and who was supposed to be smarter than what we had previously had, and yet he pissed away a legit asset.  

It was on the saber end, ie... predictive stats, age related to leagu,e and the park effects, that hinted he was better than what one would think by simply looking at traditional counting stats.   Trading him wasn't the issue..   using him as a throw in to get a Salas type was...   Salas was the sort of guy a good GM acquires for nothing..  as proof of that.... Billy Eppler did.   Both Salas and Freese were non-tender candidates...  Jerry Dipoto showed up to the talks with a visible hard on and got taken.

It was a bad deal at hello and it only got worse when Hamilton went off the rails...    

I don't think Grichuk was a throw in. I think Bourjos was a lesser trade chip and it was a package for package not one singular player offsets the other. You can argue the value of each component separately but in the end the Angels at the time needed Freese and bullpen help, not two fourth outfielders. 

Cowarts progression was afforded two more seasons which would have made him 24 at the end of Freese's contract. A reasonable projection for him to ascend, in fact he had a turnaround those years in the minors but hasn't been able to translate that to the majors. That's not any more devauling of the trade as Bourjos failing to perform and Grichuk bouncing back and forth from the minors.

And remember, Grichuk is possibly still a fourth outfielder up to this upcoming season had Hamilton played to his contract value, even with age regression. Four seasons is a long time to hold a prospect and not have a defined role. 

All players in that trade had warts. 

 

[Blarg]

Holy shit, I just spent several posts defending Jerry Dipoto. 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Blarg

[eaterfan]

13 minutes ago, Blarg said:

Holy shit, I just spent several posts defending Jerry Dipoto. 

It's okay. I will go to the grave defending the Greinke/Segura trade. 

I think that's the danger of Dipoto. He didn't have any really terrible trades, like the Vernon Wells trade, but plenty weren't good trades. Ultimately I think that was the problem. There was no real coherent long term plan that he stuck to. It was always scrambling to make a move to fix one problem by opening up another hole.

I always gave him a pass because he was hamstrung by an owner who wanted to win always and possibly forced him into signings that blew his budget for his whole tenure. But Eppler had shown me it can be done and Dipoto seems to be creating more problems in Seattle than what he inherited.

[stormngt]

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

The Brandon Wood experiment was over by 2010 and he was gone in 2011 before JD showed up...    The Freese trade happened prior to the 2015 season -- four years after Cowart had been drafted.   

Cowart was viewed a top 100 prospects as late as prior to the 2013 in which he completely cratered...   When he repeated the awfulness in 2014 it pretty much meant the Angels had to look elsewhere for their future 3B.

My timeline maybe wrong.  However wasn't Freese last year was 2014 when we last won the division?  That would make Freese's first year 2013.  Right  when you said Cowart was ranked the highest.

I was wrong by one year.  Freese's first year was 2014.

[ten ocho recon scout]

31 minutes ago, Blarg said:

Holy shit, I just spent several posts defending Jerry Dipoto. 

Go wash your hands. And floss.

[Inside Pitch]

2 minutes ago, stormngt said:

My timeline maybe wrong.  However wasn't Freese last year was 2014 when we last won the division?  That would make Freese's first year 2013.  Right  when you said Cowart was ranked the highest.

Freese was an Angel in 14 and 15.  Cowart was drafted in 2010 and last ranked in the top 100 prior to the 2013 season.  Wood was gone in 11...  Not sure Wood factored into it... Who knows

[red321]

2 hours ago, Blarg said:

I don't think Grichuk was a throw in. I think Bourjos was a lesser trade chip and it was a package for package not one singular player offsets the other. You can argue the value of each component separately but in the end the Angels at the time needed Freese and bullpen help, not two fourth outfielders. 

Cowarts progression was afforded two more seasons which would have made him 24 at the end of Freese's contract. A reasonable projection for him to ascend, in fact he had a turnaround those years in the minors but hasn't been able to translate that to the majors. That's not any more devauling of the trade as Bourjos failing to perform and Grichuk bouncing back and forth from the minors.

And remember, Grichuk is possibly still a fourth outfielder up to this upcoming season had Hamilton played to his contract value, even with age regression. Four seasons is a long time to hold a prospect and not have a defined role. 

All players in that trade had warts. 

 

My understanding of that trade was Grichuk was a toss in to cover Salas. The initial deal was Bourjous for Freese and then Salas came up in conversation which led to Grichuk being included.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/bernie-ex-cards-helping-angels-fly/article_e4a9c1d5-2ecd-59ab-ab24-a462bf08a185.html

That's why Salas was so expendable last offseason. The Cardinals were surprised when the Angels asked for Salas. They were even more surprised when the Angels agreed to part with Grichuk to get Salas. So a straight Bourjos-for-Freese deal evolved into a four-player trade. 

[Inside Pitch]

This thread has reminded me so much of Howie and how unappreciated he was by Angels fans... 

Grichuk like Kendrick seems to suffer more for what he isn't than what he actually is.   Grichuk ranks 31st among all MLB outfielders for combined fWAR from 2015-2017...  Much is made of his struggles but he's got positive grades offensively, defensively, and on the bases...    There is no question he's a hack, and anyone who's read my posts over the years knows I put an extreme value on not making outs...  It's just that he brings enough other things to the table that he is valuable even in spite of his atrocious plate discipline.   

I think he's better suited to the NL... I doubt he will ever see a sizeable improvement in his walk rate but he's got more to his game than people here are willing to give him credit for.     

 

[Jobu]

45 minutes ago, eaterfan said:

It's okay. I will go to the grave defending the Greinke/Segura trade. 

I think that's the danger of Dipoto. He didn't have any really terrible trades, like the Vernon Wells trade, but plenty weren't good trades. Ultimately I think that was the problem. There was no real coherent long term plan that he stuck to. It was always scrambling to make a move to fix one problem by opening up another hole.

I always gave him a pass because he was hamstrung by an owner who wanted to win always and possibly forced him into signings that blew his budget for his whole tenure. But Eppler had shown me it can be done and Dipoto seems to be creating more problems in Seattle than what he inherited.

In hindsight, he made his intentions clear with several comments about how the function of the farm system is to serve the big league club. On its face, that sounds logical, but his definition of "serve" was clearly as currency in trades. 

And while Eppler represents a different philosophy, and we may feel good about what he's done, and mock what Jerry's done in Seattle, neither of these teams have been very good in their tenures.

 

[tdawg87]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

This thread has reminded me so much of Howie and how unappreciated he was by Angels fans... 

Grichuk like Kendrick seems to suffer more for what he isn't than what he actually is.   Grichuk ranks 31st among all MLB outfielders for combined fWAR from 2015-2017...  Much is made of his struggles but he's got positive grades offensively, defensively, and on the bases...    There is no question he's a hack, and anyone who's read my posts over the years knows I put an extreme value on not making outs...  It's just that he brings enough other things to the table that he is valuable even in spite of his atrocious plate discipline.   

I think he's better suited to the NL... I doubt he will ever see a sizeable improvement in his walk rate but he's got more to his game than people here are willing to give him credit for.     

 

Kendrick was the man. "You don't know what you've got, 'til it's gone".

He averaged over 3 WAR a season here across 9 years. Not to mention a .292 AVG and 108 OPS+. He's the GA of the infield, and not just because he's black.

I definitely gave him too much shit over the years. He didn't deserve any of it. He's a very good player and I wish we still had him.

I liked the Heaney trade at the time (still do), but Kendrick might be the most underrated player in Angels history.

[JarsOfClay]

5 hours ago, Blarg said:

The loss of wins and money was Hamilton's fault. 

A good GM has a backup plan especially when he's well aware of Hamilton's issues.  Dipoto thought  Borenstein was the backup plan and he turned out to be a dud.  Meanwhile he trades a much more talented player in Grichuk who is making league minimum for a pitcher who was about to be released.  How can you blame that on Hamilton?

5 hours ago, Blarg said:

The Angels needed a third baseman, that was a fact. Freese gave the Angels a 3.8 war over two years at the cost of about $11 million. That was actually a good return. 

Freese for Borujos would have been fine, no one is arguing that.  It's when Dipoto threw in Grichuk when he didn't have to.

5 hours ago, Blarg said:

Salas the first season was actually ok when you look at ERA and peripherals. At the time we had Street, Smith, Jepsen, Morin and Grili all pitching at the top of their game so Salas stood out simply because he wasn't perfect. 

 All I remember of Salas is that he literally allowed every single inherited runner to score.  Sure it didn't do much damage to his era but it certainly hurt the team. 

5 hours ago, Blarg said:

You trade for needs at times and from surplus. Grichuk was surplus when you've locked in the outfield for four years with Trout, Hamilton and Calhoun and have no infield prospects.

We really needed Salas? You can easily find another Salas anywhere without giving up a talented OF prospect. He was coming off a 4.50 era season - he was terrible and a fact you keep dismissing is that he was going to be RELEASED. Throwing in Grichuk like he was dead weight was unnecessary.  And judging by the fact that we've had no LFer for the past 3 years, Id say we needed Grichuk a lot more than Salas.

[Dick B Back]

1 hour ago, tdawg87 said:

 

I liked the Heaney trade at the time (still do), but Kendrick might be the most underrated player in Angels history.

Dawg, Howie WAS the most underrated player in Angels history. I miss Howie!

[AngelsLakersFan]

4 hours ago, Blarg said:

Holy shit, I just spent several posts defending Jerry Dipoto. 

I still think you can defend most of his moves with the big club. His real legacy though, was his inability to rebuild the minor league system.

[Inside Pitch]

3 hours ago, JarsOfClay said:

A good GM has a backup plan especially when he's well aware of Hamilton's issues.  Dipoto thought  Borenstein was the backup plan and he turned out to be a dud. 

The back-up plan didn't last long -- Borenstien was moved at the deadline along with Joey Kreibeil (sp), for Joe Thatcher and a back up OF..   Tony Campana....    A JD special.

 

[The Ghost of Bob Starr]

This was a hell of a bump!

[Inside Pitch]

3 hours ago, Throwman91 said:

Grichuk hasn't made an All-Star appearance Trumbo has... just sayin bro.  Don't get so hostile.

So, using your special brand of logic.. 

Trumbo >> Salmon.   Two ASG to none..  Clearly Trumbo is twice the player Salmon was.

Good talk, Bro.

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

Howie AND aybar. Both caught a lot of flack on here, for whetever reason (kendrick moreso), but you look back at how stable those two positions were for so long...

Besides trout, pujols and calhoun, the roster has pretty much been a merry go round the last few years. Were set now at LF and SS, but still have ?s at 2B, eB and C (long term, not next season).

[Warfarin]

10 hours ago, eaterfan said:

It's okay. I will go to the grave defending the Greinke/Segura trade. 

I think that's the danger of Dipoto. He didn't have any really terrible trades, like the Vernon Wells trade, but plenty weren't good trades. Ultimately I think that was the problem. There was no real coherent long term plan that he stuck to. It was always scrambling to make a move to fix one problem by opening up another hole.

I always gave him a pass because he was hamstrung by an owner who wanted to win always and possibly forced him into signings that blew his budget for his whole tenure. But Eppler had shown me it can be done and Dipoto seems to be creating more problems in Seattle than what he inherited.

I agree.  I see the same issue with DiPoto repeating itself in Seattle.  He seems to avoid the truly awful trade (although Chris Taylor for Zach Lee might become a historically awful trade if Taylor keeps playing like he did in 2017), but he seems to be on the losing end of trades more than he is on the winning end.  This wouldn't be a big deal except for the fact that he seemingly always leads the league in trades.  When you lose a lot of trades by a small amount, that eventually adds up over time, and what we are seeing manifest in Seattle is the same thing we saw here at the end of his tenure - an aging team with an increasingly barren farm system that is unable to supplement that aging team.  I am very, very thankful we have Eppler at the helm now.