Jose Molina not returning, more changes coming?

[Angels 1961]

13 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

I would really hate to think that they'd let Molina go just to be able to find a spot for good ol' boy Kurt Suzuki...

I have heard this rumor thaiss so far

[T.G.]

7 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

Maybe Suzuki is one of those who can’t do it well in a game, but teach it well?

I know, straws.

He had a bad year, not a bad career

[Blarg]

Every time I see this thread I think I'm reading, they dumped Jose Mota?

[BTH]

A couple names I wonder about to fill this position: Alex Avila and Tyler Flowers.

Both are recently retired catchers, so they're familiar with catching in today's state of baseball. Flowers maybe more so than Avilia because Flowers was a catcher in Atlanta when Minasian was there and is now working in the Braves front office.

[Vegas Halo Fan]

On 10/15/2021 at 4:43 PM, mmc said:

 

Can't read this unless you have a subscription, and I'm not bothering.

[Taylor]

8 hours ago, True Grich said:

He had a bad year, not a bad career

[arch stanton]

3 hours ago, Vegas Halo Fan said:

Can't read this unless you have a subscription, and I'm not bothering.

If you're serious about following VGK, The Athletic has the best hockey coverage around 

[Vegas Halo Fan]

48 minutes ago, arch stanton said:

If you're serious about following VGK, The Athletic has the best hockey coverage around 

Thanks for the tip.

[happybat4]

16 hours ago, Taylor said:

20 WAR from a catcher is a pretty solid career.

[Inside Pitch]

39 minutes ago, happybat4 said:

20 WAR from a catcher is a pretty solid career.

WAR is a counting stat.

Fangraphs has him at 9.6 fWAR.  Mostly as a starter.  Jose Molina had 17.7, fWAR in almost 650 fewer games.  Suzuki had a fWAR above 2.0 once.  Above 1.5 twice.

bWAR is very kind to him.

[happybat4]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

WAR is a counting stat.

Fangraphs has him at 9.6 fWAR.  Mostly as a starter.  Jose Molina had 17.7, fWAR in almost 650 fewer games.  Suzuki had a fWAR above 2.0 once.  Above 1.5 twice.

bWAR is very kind to him.

Exactly great, but he has been an above average catcher his entire career. WAR is never kind to catchers. How many catchers during Suzuki's era finished with a higher WAR?

[jsnpritchett]

5 minutes ago, happybat4 said:

Exactly great, but he has been an above average catcher his entire career. WAR is never kind to catchers. How many catchers during Suzuki's era finished with a higher WAR?

37, believe it or not.

[Inside Pitch]

54 minutes ago, happybat4 said:

Exactly great, but he has been an above average catcher his entire career. WAR is never kind to catchers. How many catchers during Suzuki's era finished with a higher WAR?

Yeah.. no..  WAR is weighted by position.  Players are measured against other players at their positions it's no harder on catchers than it is on any other position, which is why Buster Posey ranks 3rd in all of baseball in fWAR since Suzuki joined the league.  Yadier Molina ranks 6th overall, Russell Martin ranked 8th and Brian McCaan ranked 11th.  Four of the top 11 WAR totals since 2007 are catchers.  

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=c&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=2007&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2007-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31

As far as him being an above average catcher for his entire career -- we will have to agree to disagree.  Suzuki ranks 2nd overall in total games played at the position since coming into the league and yet he fails to break into the top 30 in WAR and WAR is a counting stat, meaning playing time is very important.  His 12600+ innings are second only to Yadier since coming into the league.  You could argue he's not been a bad hitter for a catcher but he's been an awful catcher for all but the first three or four years of his career.  His DRS (another counting stat), ranks dead last (107th), among catchers who have been given at least 2000 at bats during that time .. In this case playing more has worked against him but the point it he's been awful defensively for the bulk of his career.

Dude had a nice little bump in offense after turning 30 but for his career he's been a 91 OPS+ bat..   Iannetta finished at 98.  But, no matter how much I squint I don't see anything remotely resembling an above average catcher for his entire career.

If you compare him to just catchers who have managed at least 3500 at bats since 2007, he ranks 16th out of 18 in fWAR since 2007 -- both the guys behind him played at least 300 fewer games...  

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=c&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=3500&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=2007&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2007-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31&sort=22,d

[tdawg87]

Face!

[Docwaukee]

[Slegnaac]

They need to take a hard look at the coach that decided if the RP was ready to come into the game.  Too many times this year we saw the RP come in and not be able to find the strike zone.

[jsnpritchett]

2 hours ago, jsnpritchett said:

37, believe it or not.

(I just made this up, btw)

[Taylor]

happybat has been Arte this whole time.

[happybat4]

1 hour ago, Inside Pitch said:

Yeah.. no..  WAR is weighted by position.  Players are measured against other players at their positions it's no harder on catchers than it is on any other position, which is why Buster Posey ranks 3rd in all of baseball in fWAR since Suzuki joined the league.  Yadier Molina ranks 6th overall, Russell Martin ranked 8th and Brian McCaan ranked 11th.  Four of the top 11 WAR totals since 2007 are catchers.  

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=c&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=2007&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2007-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31

As far as him being an above average catcher for his entire career -- we will have to agree to disagree.  Suzuki ranks 2nd overall in total games played at the position since coming into the league and yet he fails to break into the top 30 in WAR and WAR is a counting stat, meaning playing time is very important.  His 12600+ innings are second only to Yadier since coming into the league.  You could argue he's not been a bad hitter for a catcher but he's been an awful catcher for all but the first three or four years of his career.  His DRS (another counting stat), ranks dead last (107th), among catchers who have been given at least 2000 at bats during that time .. In this case playing more has worked against him but the point it he's been awful defensively for the bulk of his career.

Dude had a nice little bump in offense after turning 30 but for his career he's been a 91 OPS+ bat..   Iannetta finished at 98.  But, no matter how much I squint I don't see anything remotely resembling an above average catcher for his entire career.

If you compare him to just catchers who have managed at least 3500 at bats since 2007, he ranks 16th out of 18 in fWAR since 2007 -- both the guys behind him played at least 300 fewer games...  

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=c&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=3500&type=8&season=2021&month=0&season1=2007&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2007-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31&sort=22,d

Your also cherry picking by only using Fangraphs. BWAR has him much higher. 

[AngelsLakersFan]

2 minutes ago, happybat4 said:

Your also cherry picking by only using Fangraphs. BWAR has him much higher. 

bWar is trash.

[Inside Pitch]

42 minutes ago, happybat4 said:

Your also cherry picking by only using Fangraphs. BWAR has him much higher. 

Oh look, the guy that doesn't know how WAR works (catchers/WAR comment), is now accusing me of cherry picking for using the version of WAR that isn't garbage.  

Suzuki's greatest attribute was the ability to stay healthy and be relatively consistent.  I suspect he really IS a good clubhouse guy too.  Statistically, the data is what it is.

[Inside Pitch]

1 hour ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

bWar is trash.

You know the part that cracks me up?   bWAR has all the other guys higher too....  Why? Because it's universally crap. 

It's not like fWAR is picking on Suzuki, or bWAR is holding him up as a star...  Both formulas measure same positioned players the same exact way.

 

[AngelsLakersFan]

19 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

You know the part that cracks me up?   bWAR has all the other guys higher too....  Why? Because it's universally crap. 

It's not like fWAR is picking on Suzuki, or bWAR is holding him up as a star...  Both formulas measure same positioned players the same exact way.

 

I’m convinced that bWar isn’t baselined at replacement level. 

[ThisismineScios]

I think it'd be really hilarious if Suzuki ended up filling it because Perry obviously loves him, but it's dumb to think he wasn't a good enough catcher to make a good coach. Great players almost never make great coaches. Mediocre players with long careers do. They are around enough to understand the clubhouse, the game, and enough personalities to see what works and what doesn't. A lot of the time they know their own limitations as well, which helps tremendously in teaching others. I say this only from my own 15 years coaching--not that I'm an expert, but more that I've recognized knowing my own limitations as a player helped me understand how to help others. I really don't think Suzuki would make a bad catching coach, although I think he'd be better as a bench coach. Sue me. 

[T.G.]

I don’t have any reason to believe Suzuki wouldn’t make a good coach. The guy had a long career and played on some pretty good ball clubs.

There are worse ideas…