Joe Maddon's influence

[tdawg87]

So this is something I've brought up in several Gameday threads, and I know it's something @Dochalo and @Inside Pitch have discussed as well, among others.

I've always been on the "managers and coaches have minimal impact on the games" side of the argument. I was never a Scioscia defender but I also understood that his impact on the game was not significant, which is why a lot of people were calling out the "Fire Scioscia!" crowd. The next guy would do the same frustrating shit. Everyone complains about the manager; he's the easiest target.

Maddon, however, is different. @Dochalo made a great comparison to umpires Joe West and Angel Hernandez, as they always want to insert themselves into the game so they can have a significant impact. Maddon does exactly this. He's pulling out pitchers when he shouldn't and inserting the wrong guys. Seriously, every decision he makes backfires. 

The question is, why is he making these decisions? All managers pull crap like this, and everyone gets pissed about it. But again, this is different. He's doing it every game. He's trying to be the smartest guy on the field, aka Dipoto syndrome. 

How much of an impact is he having on the games? I guess I don't really know, but he is pushing unnecessary decisions every game and it's like he cares more about being in the spotlight than his team winning. Any attention is good, even if it's negative. 

His pitching management has been the worst I've seen. How could he not be doing it other than trying to look like a genius?

The Kumbaya bullshit clearly doesn't work with this team. Maddon's managing style clearly doesn't work with this team. So what do we do?

Just have to accept it. 

[failos]

I’m going to send Minasian a strongly worded email.

[thebloob]

I've often found that managers tend to be as good as the team they are given.  The "best" coaches and managers in sports tend to have the best teams.  What I find to be amazing is when coaches win things like coach of the year awards and then are fired two years later because they suddenly become a crappy coach.  At the end of the day, your initial thought that managers in baseball have the least effect of any in sports.  They are highly paid scapegoats.

[failos]

1 minute ago, thebloob said:

I've often found that managers tend to be as good as the team they are given.  The "best" coaches and managers in sports tend to have the best teams.  What I find to be amazing is when coaches win things like coach of the year awards and then are fired two years later because they suddenly become a crappy coach.  At the end of the day, your initial thought that managers in baseball have the least effect of any in sports.  They are highly paid scapegoats.

You missed tdawg’s point entirely

[Angel Oracle]

Maddon is too Maddoning.

[T.G.]

A side note observation..

When the "Fire Scioscia" crowd emerged on AW, some defended Scioscia. I'm not seeing any Maddon defenders (unless they're on my ignore list).

[stormngt]

39 minutes ago, thebloob said:

I've often found that managers tend to be as good as the team they are given.  The "best" coaches and managers in sports tend to have the best teams.  What I find to be amazing is when coaches win things like coach of the year awards and then are fired two years later because they suddenly become a crappy coach.  At the end of the day, your initial thought that managers in baseball have the least effect of any in sports.  They are highly paid scapegoats.

In most cases I agree.  Good players make good managers.

However bad managing make good players look bad.  I do believe Maddon pulls the starters way too soon.  Quintana was a good example last night.  He does not let the work their way out of trouble. 

I am wondering if the quick hooks have anything to do with nit wanting to face the order a third or fourth time.

[stormngt]

24 minutes ago, True Grich said:

A side note observation..

When the "Fire Scioscia" crowd emerged on AW, some defended Scioscia. I'm not seeing any Maddon defenders (unless they're on my ignore list).

Scioscia had almost over a decade leading the Angels to their greatest era (1999-2009).  A WS championship and five division titles earn a lot of leeway.

Scioscia was criticized for going with veterans over rookies, staying with a reliever too long, bunting too much and the contact play.

Scioscia had devastating injuries to starting pitching.

Maddon has no success with the Angels.   His failure is pulling pitchers too soon, not staying with them too long.  His pitching is relatively healthy.  He has had injuries to Trout and Rendon.

[Docwaukee]

Joe was the bench coach for MS the first five years of his career, so he caught early Mike who was still getting his managing sea legs.  Then it was off to Tampa for 9 years mostly under Andrew Friedman.  The reason I mention his history is because everyone assumes that MS was a primary influence on Joe and we always compare the two. 

But I think the primary influence on Joe was Andrew. 

Andrew was the smartest guy in the room.  Still is the smartest guy in the room.  I think, if anything, Joe wants to prove he's more like Andrew Friedman than Mike Scioscia.  

Joe's method for handling the pitching staff is based entirely around not letting starters face guys the third time through.  This was actually a pretty common thing that Andrew brought to the table quite a bit but he's actually evolved.  

We have the lowest number of batters faced in baseball vs. 3rd and 4th time through the order.  That's it.  That's what he's doing right now.  And he thinks it's gonna work.  

My biggest issue is that as much as Joe is known for creating harmony etc., he's very poor at individualizing his approach for certain guys and putting each player in their wheelhouse for success.  He doesn't pay enough attention to the specific talent level and nuances that can make each one successful.  He takes an approach and tries to fit the players into that approach as opposed to the other way around.  In other words, he doesn't care who you are, you should do it his way because he's Joe Maddon and knows what works.  At least that's what I see and maybe I'm wrong.

The entire pitching staff is on eggshells with this approach.  50-80 pitches from your starters and then 6 innings of pen work.  Not only is it not working now, but it's gonna absolutely decimate the pen later in the season.  

So the answer is yes.  He's having a major undue influence on the game outcomes right now because he thinks he's smarter than the game.  How long will he ride this philosophy before he realizes that it's not working.  We have the highest k rate and walk rate among our starters because they're afraid to allow a base runner.  Maybe some of that is defense as well but it all ties together.    

[T.G.]

20 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

My biggest issue is that as much as Joe is known for creating harmony etc., he's very poor at individualizing his approach for certain guys and putting each player in their wheelhouse for success.  He doesn't pay enough attention to the specific talent level and nuances that can make each one successful.  He takes an approach and tries to fit the players into that approach as opposed to the other way around.  In other words, he doesn't care who you are, you should do it his way because he's Joe Maddon and knows what works.  At least that's what I see and maybe I'm wrong.

Serious question. How do you know this? What examples do you have? I'm honestly curious.

[CanadianHalo]

1 hour ago, thebloob said:

I've often found that managers tend to be as good as the team they are given.  The "best" coaches and managers in sports tend to have the best teams.  What I find to be amazing is when coaches win things like coach of the year awards and then are fired two years later because they suddenly become a crappy coach.  At the end of the day, your initial thought that managers in baseball have the least effect of any in sports.  They are highly paid scapegoats.

Yeah, there isn’t a manager in the world that could be competitive with this roster.

However, I think Maddon played a large role in constructing this roster this winter. Guys like Quintana and Cobb, ex Maddon guys that are most likely only here because of Maddon. 

Maybe his hands were tied with budget and he was going with familiarity over unknowns at the price point they had to work with? We saw the same style approach this offseason as we did when Eppler was here.

So that leads me to believe that there’s really only one person to blame for all of this and it’s Arte.

[failos]

12 minutes ago, True Grich said:

Serious question. How do you know this? What examples do you have? I'm honestly curious.

The eye test

[tdawg87]

12 minutes ago, CanadianHalo said:

Yeah, there isn’t a manager in the world that could be competitive with this roster.

However, I think Maddon played a large role in constructing this roster this winter. Guys like Quintana and Cobb, ex Maddon guys that are most likely only here because of Maddon. 

Maybe his hands were tied with budget and he was going with familiarity over unknowns at the price point they had to work with? We saw the same style approach this offseason as we did when Eppler was here.

So that leads me to believe that there’s really only one person to blame for all of this and it’s Arte.

There's a lot of blame to go around. And yes, it begins with Arte.

[T.G.]

Just now, failos said:

The eye test

Done by a Optometrist or Opthamologist?

[Angelsjunky]

A manager can only influence the players they have to work with and how they perform in a minor way, but they have a huge say in how the parts fit together, both through their play-by-play decisions, and the chemistry in the clubhouse.

I don't know how much we can blame Maddon--there's no way to quantify it--but things aren't gelling. The parts aren't fitting together well. Many of his in-game decisions seem suspect, but we're also all prone to confirmation bias. When the team isn't doing well, it is easy to only see the bad plays and hindsight mistakes.

All that said, it isn't all on Maddon. In fact, it mostly isn't. Most of the team is performing below expectation. Four out of six starters have ERAs over 5.00, and a fifth just under. Fletcher has underperformed, and then the injuries to Trout, Rendon, and Stassi have hurt the offense. Maddon can't prevent Trout from being injury-prone, nor can he pitch for the starters.

 

[stormngt]

57 minutes ago, Dochalo said:

Joe was the bench coach for MS the first five years of his career, so he caught early Mike who was still getting his managing sea legs.  Then it was off to Tampa for 9 years mostly under Andrew Friedman.  The reason I mention his history is because everyone assumes that MS was a primary influence on Joe and we always compare the two. 

But I think the primary influence on Joe was Andrew. 

Andrew was the smartest guy in the room.  Still is the smartest guy in the room.  I think, if anything, Joe wants to prove he's more like Andrew Friedman than Mike Scioscia.  

Joe's method for handling the pitching staff is based entirely around not letting starters face guys the third time through.  This was actually a pretty common thing that Andrew brought to the table quite a bit but he's actually evolved.  

We have the lowest number of batters faced in baseball vs. 3rd and 4th time through the order.  That's it.  That's what he's doing right now.  And he thinks it's gonna work.  

My biggest issue is that as much as Joe is known for creating harmony etc., he's very poor at individualizing his approach for certain guys and putting each player in their wheelhouse for success.  He doesn't pay enough attention to the specific talent level and nuances that can make each one successful.  He takes an approach and tries to fit the players into that approach as opposed to the other way around.  In other words, he doesn't care who you are, you should do it his way because he's Joe Maddon and knows what works.  At least that's what I see and maybe I'm wrong.

The entire pitching staff is on eggshells with this approach.  50-80 pitches from your starters and then 6 innings of pen work.  Not only is it not working now, but it's gonna absolutely decimate the pen later in the season.  

So the answer is yes.  He's having a major undue influence on the game outcomes right now because he thinks he's smarter than the game.  How long will he ride this philosophy before he realizes that it's not working.  We have the highest k rate and walk rate among our starters because they're afraid to allow a base runner.  Maybe some of that is defense as well but it all ties together.    

That sounds exactly what he is doing.  He does not like letting his starters face the lineup 3rd or 4th time.   He does not let the work out of trouble.  How often has our starters pitched well four three or four innings.  Get into trouble in 5th or 6th inning.  Only to get pulled leaving a couple men on base and the bullpen let's them score.

[failos]

25 minutes ago, True Grich said:

Done by a Optometrist or Opthamologist?

[John Taylor]

@Chuckster70 and I were talking about some of this last night (after a few drinks lol) and one thing that both of us noticed is that there is this strange timidity of our pitching staff that has existed for what seems like the past 9 years or so, which would span 3 managers, pretty much the last real "bulldog" we had was Weaver.

That was one thing I was hoping Maddon would bring to the Angels because he is a "players" manager that he would allow one of our young guys to develop that mentality, but when I look at the entire pitching staff all I see are a bunch of flippand timid underachievers. Canning I think will grow into a fine pitcher and Ohtani is just so good that he can basically be lackadaisical and still dominate.

I was hoping  Bundy would be that "John Lackey" type but nope.

I wonder if Maddon's coaching style in Chicago is kind of what burned the Cubs out on him. I do think that Maddon is the one guy who has the stones to let Ohtani hit and pitch at the same time and not baby him (Although Ohtani is showing fatigue)

[WicketMaiden]

1 hour ago, Dochalo said:

 

The entire pitching staff is on eggshells with this approach.  50-80 pitches from your starters and then 6 innings of pen work.  Not only is it not working now, but it's gonna absolutely decimate the pen later in the season.     

The term decimation comes from the ancient Roman practice of killing every tenth man as a punishment for things like cowardice, mutiny, desertion, allowing inherited runners to score etc Maybe this is just what the pen needs. 

[Second Base]

Mike Scioscia was too inflexible to manage a winner in this era. Brad Ausmus was too much of a stat-geek to lead men. Joe Maddon is too player-centric to satisfactorily make game winning decisions. 

I think at some point you just need to call a duck, a duck. Jerry Dipoto gave Mike Scioscia shit teams to manage and pissed away the farm. Billy Eppler gave his managers shit teams to manage in the name of rebuilding the farm. Perry Minasian has given Joe Maddon a shit team to manage, and we aren't even sure what his excuse is. 

[failos]

1 minute ago, Second Base said:

Mike Scioscia was too inflexible to manage a winner in this era. Brad Ausmus was too much of a stat-geek to lead men. Joe Maddon is too player-centric to satisfactorily make game winning decisions. 

I think at some point you just need to call a duck, a duck. Jerry Dipoto gave Mike Scioscia shit teams to manage and pissed away the farm. Billy Eppler gave his managers shit teams to manage in the name of rebuilding the farm. Perry Minasian has given Joe Maddon a shit team to manage, and we aren't even sure what his excuse is. 

Mike Scioscia is our only hope you fool 

[Make Angels Great Again]

It's like since Joe allowed Ohtani to go 92 pitches that first start against the white sox, "let a guy become a guy" as he put it he completely abandoned the idea. Maybe he was told to not do that again by the front office? Who knows.

[Angel Oracle]

I wonder if Minasian is behind the limiting pitches, from his Rays days?

One problem Perry, you don’t have the pen that the Rays had.

[CanadianHalo]

1 hour ago, tdawg87 said:

There's a lot of blame to go around. And yes, it begins with Arte.

The scary part is that Maddon is Arte’s guy. 

This could drag out for a few seasons and most likely something Minasian has no say over. 

Arte thinks Maddon can fix this organization. Many think Maddon is part of the problem. This could get worse before it/if it ever gets better.

[Jay]

3 hours ago, True Grich said:

A side note observation..

When the "Fire Scioscia" crowd emerged on AW, some defended Scioscia. I'm not seeing any Maddon defenders (unless they're on my ignore list).

The "Fire Scioscia" people were also the ones claiming that Maddon is a genius. That's a tough sell these days.