Joe Maddon's influence

[ScottT]

2 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Guess they are all just managers because you can apply your reasoning to pretty much every manager and come to the same conclusion.

For years MS led teams consistently outplayed their expected records, teams that tend to do that do that typically have one of the better "just managers".  It was funny to see sites like BBP try to figure out why the Angels did what they did.  Years later analytics became all the rage and teams suddenly started talking up the importance of run prevention/defense, and shortening games.  That was MS baseball at it's most basic... 

MS wanted more pitching the year the Angels signed AP...  He was mocked by many people here for not having been in the loop when the Angels signed him.   JD was praised for not involving him in the decision making, much like he was prevented from having access/input to how things were being done in the minors.

Worked out really well.

Everyone wants more pitching.

Congratulations, Mike Scioscia, for being like 29 other managers

[Docwaukee]

15 hours ago, True Grich said:

Serious question. How do you know this? What examples do you have? I'm honestly curious.

I don't really.  Just an observation.  Even mentioned that.  

[T.G.]

6 hours ago, Dochalo said:

I don't really.  Just an observation.  Even mentioned that.  

Ok... an observation. Fine. So, you saw specific things? What things? Not trying to be a jerk here.

[Stradling]

(I think TG is trying to be a jerk)

Lets see how this plays out. 

[T.G.]

I'm really not.

I don't like Maddon at all, but I can't articulate why.

IP explains some of the things Maddon is doing or not doing based on analytics and I appreciate that.

I'm looking for other concrete answers.

My dislike is based more on his persona... I guess.

I'm looking for more. Doc is usually insightful and I'm trying to get more out of him. That's all.

[totdprods]

10 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Meh, given baseball was trying to return from Covid and all the other BS that was uncertain at the time, plus the reality that he was a new hire you have to give him another year to get a feel for what he's really capable of.  You can probably say the same thing about the draft this year, even though they will actually have most of the college/prep seasons to scout players instead of the usual month of games.

Say what you will, I like that he didn't come in Dipoto or Kevin Malone, declare himself the new sheriff in town and go about fire a bunch of people without first evaluating them.  

Minasian hasn't had any time to really put his footprint on the team, we still don't have any clue what a Minasian front office will be like, all that gibberish people were repeating about "Well, in Toronto this, and Atlanta that, and under Alex Anthopoulos they did this, and he's three times removed through marriage to Andrew Friedman" blah blah blah...  We will know what Perry is good and bad at soon enough, but we aren't there yet.  

And I’m absolutely giving him some leniency still - it’s hard to come in and make an immediate impact without knowing what all you have. You don’t want to rely entirely on prior FO’s assessment - you want your guys to evaluate, and that was even harder without a minor league season.

Perhaps he went with Cobb, Quintana, vet RPs on one year deals, Fowler, etc. simply out of an abundance of caution. Don’t tip the cart without knowing what you can afford parting with and all that. If that’s the case, I’ll give him a ton of credit in that it was wise to ‘sacrifice’ 2021 in order to better evaluate for 2022+...but it’s going to have to show itself in the moves he makes this July and this winter, and it’s going to be an incredibly tall task given the turnover the roster was already due to see. The Angels can’t really afford to keep punting. The Trout-Ohtani-Rendon window can close a lot faster than one would think. 

Extremely interested in seeing how this plays out this summer and winter. Could be the most critical offseason we’ve had in awhile. 

[Fish Oil]

23 hours ago, WicketMaiden said:

The term decimation comes from the ancient Roman practice of killing every tenth man as a punishment for things like cowardice, mutiny, desertion, allowing inherited runners to score etc Maybe this is just what the pen needs. 

Here is an idea. Let's have the bullpen draw straws the next time they blow a lead. The guy with the short straw will then be beaten to death on the mound by the others.
That should provide some incentive to get the ball in the zone.

[failos]

5 minutes ago, Fish Oil said:

Here is an idea. Let's have the bullpen draw straws the next time they blow a lead. The guy with the short straw will then be beaten to death on the mound by the others.
That should provide some incentive to get the ball in the zone.

Or Erstad can be manager. He has the same effect on players.

[Duren, Duren]

The pitching is insanely inconsistent, but mostly just bad. Allowed the most homers in the league, one of the worst for starter innings pitched and a bullpen that is a collective arson squad. Two thirds of the position players are having bad seasons. Some are fringe major leaguers at best.  A few probably will hover around the Mendozza line all year. Big money Rendon and Upton producing pennies on the dollar. Pujols actually was respectable by those standards.

And it's the manager's fault?  

He can only deal the cards he was dealt. Obviously he's made some bad decisions, but he also is advised by his bench coaches and scouts. Maybe a different pitching coach could bring in a new philosophy. And some defensive specialists could be brought in to work with the specific units. Infield, outfield, catcher. Defense has killed so many games. 

Overall Maddon has been disappointing because he hasn't been an upgrade over Sciosa or even Asmus. He came in with a great reputation and high expectations. But what manager could do substantially better given the roster and Trout"s absence? 

I doubt the team even gets over .500 this year. Just not good enough to put together long winning streaks while avoiding losing streaks. But 2021 needs to be about Minasian  building a foundation from the ground up. And most logically, finding a younger manager for the future.

And prioritizing Ohtani's long term future. Playing on bad teams his whole career may have him wanting a change when possible. Trout has lived through the same scenario for most of his career. I don't know if Ohtani will be as passive. 

[UndertheHalo]

I never really cared much for Maddens managing schtick.  Ever.  Going back to when everyone worshipped him on the Rays.  So that’s not great.  I also don’t think the Angels would be in any meaningfully different situation right now if someone else had the managers office and was managing “better”.  Maddon seems like a good club house guy and I think that’s important.  Probably the most important thing for a baseball manager.  He’s good with the media and that’s fun for us, but it doesn’t matter at all.  The Angels have to not have the worst pitching in baseball if they are going anywhere with the Trout/Ohtani/Rendon and now Walsh situation.  Arte has to spend money to make the team competitive with infrastructure.  He also has to spend the money to get better players now because the aforementioned situation has a ticking clock.  And it might not last even 3 years.  Hopefully longer.  But maybe not.  Pretty fucked up how this has gone.  

Edited May 23, 2021 by UndertheHalo

[Tank]

Joe was the bench coach for MS the first five years of his career, so he caught early Mike who was still getting his managing sea legs.  Then it was off to Tampa for 9 years mostly under Andrew Friedman.  The reason I mention his history is because everyone assumes that MS was a primary influence on Joe and we always compare the two

=====

hey @Dochalo, if I listen to the experts here, Sosh only won because Maddon was the genius pushing all the right buttons.

[Docwaukee]

4 hours ago, True Grich said:

Ok... an observation. Fine. So, you saw specific things? What things? Not trying to be a jerk here.

So some of it is very much related to the stuff @Inside Pitch is talking about where you see guys in spots that just don't make sense relative to their skill level or what they've done in the past.  And relative to what the numbers say.  So a lot of it is relative to specific situations for various relievers.  

A really good example I think highlights my thought process actually occurred last year when he just threw Thaiss out at 2b.  I also don't like to way he's using Iglesias.  I'm all for non-traditional pen roles but you can see it just doesn't work for Iglesias.  Should it?  Yes.  Does it?  No.  

Here's another good example.  Jose Rojas is a terrible defender in the OF.  You know what's funny about that 'great' throw he made the other day to get the runner at home?  He absolutely air mailed the cutoff man and if that throw isn't perfectly on line it's actually poor fundamental baseball that has a very very low chance of being successful.  My point is that Rojas shouldn't be out there and a lucky play just reinforces Maddon's willingness to throw shit against the wall.  

And another example specific to pitchers.  He's totally on not letting starters face a lineup a third time right now and I'm actually not totally opposed to that thought process.  But there have been multiple situations where the starter still had a better matchup vs. the reliever he brought in.  So instead of understanding the players he's putting into certain situations he thinks that his 'approach' will work instead being a little more specific on which guys he's putting where to facilitate that.  

It almost seems forced at times where 'in theory' something is an interesting idea from 30,000 feet but the execution falls short because he doesn't account for who he's actually asking to execute.  

 

[stormngt]

19 hours ago, Slegnaac said:

The problem with the "Fire so and so" mantra is always who is going to replace that person.  

I didn't have an issue with Maddon until he said he didn't care about results.  I have to assume he really meant that.  Results absolutely matter.

The greatest basketball coach I have ever known consistently stated he never set a goal about winning.  He focuses on be the hardest working team in the country,  play with pride and loyalty.  

He said winning was a byproduct of being the hardest working team, playing with pride and be loyal.