Arte: "We need to win" for Eppler to get a new deal

[Inside Pitch]

9 hours ago, RendZone said:

Pitching is a crapshoot. There’s probably only a handful of sure fire starters in MLB. They cost Millions on the open market. I think that they’re going to put their hopes on Ohtani coming back healthy, filthy and dominant. If that happens then they can concentrate on getting a #2.

Pitcher health is a crapshoot but pitcher performance, at least SP performance .... Much less so.     

There is no way around Billy having missed the boat last year... Both Harvey and Allen had some Jerry Dipoto-like "smartest guy in the room" vibes to them, all the predictive data screamed stay away but Epp, gambled on the two of them seeing improvements in their FBs --  neither did and they pitched to what their predictive data was pointing towards.   

Cahill, Bour, fine.... Cahill's implosion was a bit surprising and Bour cost chump-change... but Allen and Harvey were massive red flags at hello....  Those moves shouldn't be placed ahead of everything he's done right but they shouldn't be glossed over.  IMO, if Arte doesn't extend him it will be because of the 2019 offseason and mostly due to those two deals.

[Angels 1961]

19 hours ago, True Grich said:

Trout's extension and Rendon's signing don't happen without Moreno's "meddling."

It goes both ways.

You are not Joshing about that

[Angels 1961]

2 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Pitcher health is a crapshoot but pitcher performance, at least SP performance .... Much less so.     

There is no way around Billy having missed the boat last year... Both Harvey and Allen had some Jerry Dipoto-like "smartest guy in the room" vibes to them, all the prestige data screamed stay away but Epp, gambled on the two of them seeing improvements in their FBs --  neither did and they pitched to what their predictive data was pointing towards.   

Cahill, Bour, fine.... Cahill's implosion was a bit surprising and Bour cost chump-change... but Allen and Harvey were massive red flags at hello....  Those moves shouldn't be placed ahead of everything he's done right but they shouldn't be glossed over.  IMO, if Arte doesn't extend him it will be because of the 2019 offseason and mostly due to those two deals.

It was a crap shoot both with Harvey and Allen but at time nothing else was out there. Most important signing last year was Trout. Need to be healthy this year team has improved now we roll the dice.

[Inside Pitch]

31 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

It was a crap shoot both with Harvey and Allen but at time nothing else was out there. Most important signing last year was Trout. Need to be healthy this year team has improved now we roll the dice.

There were plenty of FA SP options at the time, Eppler put his hopes on potential upside  He gambled and lost.   Had Harvey been the only guy to bust it wouldn't look so bad but every single one of them did.   I'm a big fan of what Eppler has done but he gets to wear his fuck-ups same as he does the good he's done.  

As far as Allen goes -- if he was all that was left, then he should have passed.

[Angel Oracle]

40 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

You are not Joshing about that

Arte did remedy that after the 2014 season, and since then only Upton and Rendon have been big money acquisitions.   Neither of them will ever be mistaken for the mess that is Josh Hackilton.

[eligrba]

8 hours ago, Rally Gorilla said:

We differ a bit on Arte doing a good job....unless you mean boosting his net worth.       He's very good at that.   

 

 

I think that is the purpose of owning a business. Baseball is a business, not a philanthropic  venture. 

[Claude]

3 hours ago, Inside Pitch said:

Pitcher health is a crapshoot but pitcher performance, at least SP performance .... Much less so.     

There is no way around Billy having missed the boat last year... Both Harvey and Allen had some Jerry Dipoto-like "smartest guy in the room" vibes to them, all the prestige data screamed stay away but Epp, gambled on the two of them seeing improvements in their FBs --  neither did and they pitched to what their predictive data was pointing towards.   

Cahill, Bour, fine.... Cahill's implosion was a bit surprising and Bour cost chump-change... but Allen and Harvey were massive red flags at hello....  Those moves shouldn't be placed ahead of everything he's done right but they shouldn't be glossed over.  IMO, if Arte doesn't extend him it will be because of the 2019 offseason and mostly due to those two deals.

I get your point but this is what happens when the owner goes out and plays Mr Yankee with Pujols, Upton, Trout, Rendon and then tells the GM to now go fill the empty square holes with round pegs to stay well below the threshold. They either should spend like the Yankees or spend like the A’s. The in between spending commitment seems to fall short. I’m speaking about more than the 25 man roster of course. The international spending and scouting needs to also improve.

Edited February 18, 2020 by RendZone

[T.G.]

The narrative that Arte is only interested in making money is weak.  Nothing would boost the value of the Angels organization more than winning a World Series title.

[Rally Gorilla]

26 minutes ago, eligrba said:

I think that is the purpose of owning a business. Baseball is a business, not a philanthropic  venture. 

So, you were a big McCourt fan then?

[Rally Gorilla]

Just now, True Grich said:

The narrative that Arte is only interested in making money is weak.  Nothing would boost the value of the Angels organization more than winning a World Series title.

10 year playoff win drought....and Arte's net worth has skyrocketed in the same period.  

[Junkballer]

It's still an unknown, and likely will always be an unknown, what the communication was between Eppler and Friedman when the Sox started two-stepping the Betts deal because of fan backlash.  We never did find out who the players going back were going to be and I find it plausible that Friedman, while explaining to Eppler the delay in the Angels deal, also may have indicated that the players in addition to Rengifo may need to be changed.  They had a handshake deal in place and Friedman and Arte had differing views on what a handshake deal obligates you to.  Of course, one man's integrity is another mans impetuousness but I do believe Arte was motivated to move on based on his own personal sense of integrity.  At the end of the day, an (non-corporate) owner has to make decisions that allow for them to live with themselves and enjoy their role for the long term and I'm OK with Arte making decisions based on that, even when I don't like the results or might have made a different decision in his place.

 

[T.G.]

Just now, Rally Gorilla said:

10 year playoff win drought....and Arte's net worth has skyrocketed in the same period.  

And it would grow even more if they won in the post season; especially if they won a World Series.

It's as if you fault the guy for making money and increasing the value of the franchise.  You keep talking about his growing net worth like it's a bad thing.  It's not.  Do you doubt his commitment to winning?

You seem to be upset because you believe Arte nixed a deal that was simply Rengifo for a boatload of talent.  That wasn't the deal. You don't know the particulars of the deal. None of us do. In your frustration you continue to ignore the facts and push the same narrative and add the bit about his net worth.  It's weak. The value of the franchise isn't relative to the argument at all.

Arte has a big ego. I'm guessing every MLB franchise owner does to some extent. BFD.

[Inside Pitch]

29 minutes ago, RendZone said:

I get your point but this is what happens when the owner goes out and plays Mr Yankee with Pujols, Upton, Trout, Rendon and then tells the GM to now go fill the empty square holes with round pegs to stay well below the threshold. They either should spend like the Yankees or spend like the A’s. The in between spending commitment seems to fall short. I’m speaking about more than the 25 man roster of course. The international spending and scouting needs to also improve.

Disagree with this completely.   It's about spending wisely, not spending a lot or spending a little.   Harvey and Allen were bad choices at hello.

The Angels FA mistakes have been mostly due to ignoring red flags -- there has been a lot less of it under Eppler but he's not been immune.   The best example is how well they have made out salvaging RP types, then they do a 180, ignore the data and hope on a guy re-finding his FB and pay him 8 Mil or whatever it was they spent on Allen.   That was a poor decision regardless of what the cost was, but it was made a stupid one when you consider the money they spent and the reality that Eppler had to go to Arte to "get" that extra money.    If you're going to extend, extend on someone worthwhile, not a project.

As far as international spending goes -- the Angels have spent the max allowable amount every year under Eppler.   Teams are locked into a slot figure and there is no way around it.  The Yankees, the A's and everyone else has their  budget decided for them by MLB.

 

[Inside Pitch]

14 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

10 year playoff win drought....and Arte's net worth has skyrocketed in the same period.  

How much has he spent those 10 years to not win a playoff game?   

[T.G.]

2 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

Harvey and Allen were bad choices at hello.

LOL

[T.G.]

2 minutes ago, Inside Pitch said:

How much has he spent those 10 years to not win a playoff game?   

IP don't know you know - the money spent was all "PR dollars."

[Inside Pitch]

4 minutes ago, True Grich said:

LOL

Not sure I get this -- but, I said they were when they happened..    I had in fact said Harvey was the ONE pitcher I didn't want them to sign.   

[T.G.]

Just now, Inside Pitch said:

Not sure I get this -- but, I said they were when they happened..    I had in fact said Harvey was the ONE pitcher I didn't want them to sign.   

I thought it was a funny line.  It made me laugh.  Not laughing at you.  Laughing at what you said.  It was spot on and I liked the way you worded it.

[Dtwncbad]

22 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

10 year playoff win drought....and Arte's net worth has skyrocketed in the same period.  

Let’s cut to the chase.  In 9 years you will be blaming Arte for the length of Trout’s contract.

[Rally Gorilla]

I don

16 minutes ago, True Grich said:

And it would grow even more if they won in the post season; especially if they won a World Series.

It's as if you fault the guy for making money and increasing the value of the franchise.  You keep talking about his growing net worth like it's a bad thing.  It's not.  Do you doubt his commitment to winning?

You seem to be upset because you believe Arte nixed a deal that was simply Rengifo for a boatload of talent.  That wasn't the deal. You don't know the particulars of the deal. None of us do. In your frustration you continue to ignore the facts and push the same narrative and add the bit about his net worth.  It's weak. The value of the franchise isn't relative to the argument at all.

Arte has a big ego. I'm guessing every MLB franchise owner does to some extent. BFD.

I agree that the smart move is to win.    This is big market.

I don't fault anyone for making money...those are your words.

Rengifo was the player identified in the trade....you think the Angels were just going to also throw in Adell?  

Arte does have a big ego....and it left us with a gutted farm, a poor performing team, and a 10 year playoff win drought.    

[T.G.]

2 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

I don't fault anyone for making money...those are your words. 

HELLO?? You keep bringing up his net worth to make your point.

[Rally Gorilla]

1 hour ago, Angel Oracle said:

Arte did remedy that after the 2014 season, and since then only Upton and Rendon have been big money acquisitions.   Neither of them will ever be mistaken for the mess that is Josh Hackilton.

No he didn't.   He ate the contract and did the right things so we didn't end up with Hamiltons life wreckage on our doorstep....which was the right thing to do.   What he didn't do was spend to make up for the disaster that he created by forcing the signing in the first place.

I really liked both the Upton and Rendon signings....and I think the Teheran and Bundy deals make sense in this overpriced SP market.   I'm very glad we passed on Cole.     But, as is his style, Arte went into budget lockdown and we passed on many, many lower tier FA SP'ers that could have helped.    Then he nixed a deal that brought in a decent mid-level guy.      

[T.G.]

4 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

Arte does have a big ego....and it left us with a gutted farm, a poor performing team, and a 10 year playoff win drought.    

Trying to understand this narrative... Hmm. 

It was Arte's idea to gut the farm?  That's breaking news right there.  I wonder if ESPN or MLB Network has this story? 

Arte gave Dipoto autonomy to do what he thought was best.  That's definitely signs of a big ego right there.  Yup. Must be.

[Rally Gorilla]

2 minutes ago, True Grich said:

HELLO?? You keep bringing up his net worth to make your point.

I bring up his net worth to illustrate he is unwilling to spend on non-splashy moves that would give the team balance.     I think you know that.

[T.G.]

2 minutes ago, Rally Gorilla said:

I bring up his net worth to illustrate he is unwilling to spend on non-splashy moves that would give the team balance.     I think you know that.

That's just ludicrous.

RG - I don't have anything against you. You clearly want to see the Angels win like the rest of us.  We just disagree on what Arte brings to the table as an owner.

I'm willing to just agree to disagree with you and move on because I don't think this dialog is going anywhere.

Go Halos!