and Shoe gone as well

[Blarg]

30 minutes ago, Lou said:

affordable and valuluable doesn't mean great. neither is slightly higher than league average. 

we had 6 starters this year with an era+ of at least 100 

You can keep pissing on the guys career, you're still wrong. 

[Tank]

1 hour ago, Taylor said:

Strange that they kept Bedrosian but lost Parker.

yeah, i'd have lost a lot of money on that bet. 

[eligrba4ever]

The eight players to whom the Angels will tender contracts are all 30 or younger.

Ramirez is 30. The rest are 27 to 29.

Shoemaker is 32 and Parker will be 34. Shoe could possibly be brought back at a price lower than what he would have gotten in arbitration. But he will probably go elsewhere.

[eligrba4ever]

4 minutes ago, Tank said:

yeah, i'd have lost a lot of money on that bet. 

Bedrosian had his first full injury-free season and his numbers were all improved. He was second to Alvarez in appearances. He struck out 57 and walked just 26. Parker was going in the opposite direction. So, no. It was not a surprise.

[UndertheHalo]

26 minutes ago, eligrba4ever said:

The eight players to whom the Angels will tender contracts are all 30 or younger.

Ramirez is 30. The rest are 27 to 29.

Shoemaker is 32 and Parker will be 34. Shoe could possibly be brought back at a price lower than what he would have gotten in arbitration. But he will probably go elsewhere.

This is exactly what it is, and I’m fine with it.    Getting younger is a positive.  Money will be freed up and they’ll get new blood into the organization.  Also a good thing.  Hopefully they get good players.  

Edited December 1, 2018 by UndertheHalo

[mulwin444]

They can re-sign both Shoemaker and Parker if they want to...

[Lou]

13 hours ago, eligrba4ever said:

Bedrosian had his first full injury-free season and his numbers were all improved. He was second to Alvarez in appearances. He struck out 57 and walked just 26. Parker was going in the opposite direction. So, no. It was not a surprise.

Bedrosian's whip, bb/9, hits/9 were all higher in 2018 than they were in 2017 

[Troll Daddy]

I hope Eppler resigns Shoemaker 

[failos]

Is Arcia the team’s ace now?

[nando714]

Agree with this move as well. 

[DMVol]

45 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

I hope Eppler resigns Shoemaker 

I’d be surprised if somebody doesn’t offer him at least what he was going to get in arbitration....he’s a reasonably cheap high reward option for a small market or mid market type team....we’ll see....

[Second Base]

If Eppler let Shoemaker, he would've been thrust into a role that he was paid too much for. The Angels are going to bring in two legitimate starters that will be depended upon for 180 innings. That would mean our other three starters will be Skaggs, Heaney and Barria. Shoemaker would've been a reserve starter and long man in the bullpen. The Angels already have Felix Pena for that role, and will likely keep both Canning and Barria for anything more extended. 

So Shoe was a bit of an unnecessary luxury. 

[JarsOfClay]

I would have liked to try Shoemaker as closer. He would make a really good one, and it would reduce the strain on his arm.

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

Shoemaker was a good story in 2014 when he got the call up and posted much better numbers than he had in the minors.  After that he seemed like one of those guys who would look average to good for maybe 3 starts then look bad for the next 5.  Just enough to make you think he was going to put it together but it never happened as his best year was 2014 and from 2015-2018 his ERA+ was 92.  The Angels had so many question marks on their staff that I'm fine with them parting with some guys because they can't afford to hope guys from last year finally put it together and/or stay healthy.  If they can get him back for less than he would have gotten in arbitration I'm all for it.  If not I wish him the best as he always seemed like a good guy. 

[Stradling]

51 minutes ago, JarsOfClay said:

I would have liked to try Shoemaker as closer. He would make a really good one, and it would reduce the strain on his arm.

That’s a myth.  Relief pitchers are slightly more susceptible to injury.  

[Docwaukee]

lots of young players suck.    

I'm all for moving on from older players.  But only when you have the option to do so as a result of lesser production relative to what they're being paid AND you have someone to appropriately replace them.  

I think Parker is pretty easily replaceable. 

I think getting a 160 inning starter with league avg performance for about 4m is going to be pretty tough.  Clearly, Eppler didn't think Shoe was that guy or he'd have kept him.  Or he thinks he's got enough depth and that 4m is important in obtaining a pitcher of greater value.  

[ettin]

At this point I would not be surprised to see one of Canning or Suarez make the team out of Spring Training.

[Torridd]

On 11/30/2018 at 8:05 PM, jsnpritchett said:

...or actually be good even if he is healthy.

I'm on the record for saying I think we should have kept Shoe. At least put him in the pen.

[totdprods]

I mentioned it and @Second Base seconded it...I don’t think it’s about whether or not Shoemaker is worth the money or a candidate to bounce back, but more about their intent to add two proven SPs to rotation, which would have slotted Shoe into the #6 role, shuffling between AAA and Anaheim, spot starting, occasional long-relief, and we already have Pena slotted for that, without a $4m price tag.

It’s too much money to spend on a pitcher to pitch in SLC, if you intend on adding that many guys ahead of him on the depth chart.

[Second Base]

4 hours ago, Dochalo said:

lots of young players suck.    

I'm all for moving on from older players.  But only when you have the option to do so as a result of lesser production relative to what they're being paid AND you have someone to appropriately replace them.  

I think Parker is pretty easily replaceable. 

I think getting a 160 inning starter with league avg performance for about 4m is going to be pretty tough.  Clearly, Eppler didn't think Shoe was that guy or he'd have kept him.  Or he thinks he's got enough depth and that 4m is important in obtaining a pitcher of greater value.  

After the injuries the Angels endured the last two years, I don't think for a second that's Eppler believes the Angels have enough depth. I think this one comes down to age, payroll and fit. Shoemaker is good enough to be on this team in some capacity, but that capacity likely would have meant that Griffin Canning and Jose Suarez, our top two pitching prospects would've been in AAA longer than necessary. At some point, you have to let the kids play and that some point appears to be 2019. We're probably going to see a youth movement with Fletcher, Ward. Hermosillo, Thaiss, Rengifo, Jewell, Suarez, and Canning and possibly even Adell and Pat Sandoval breaking into the big leagues. The presence of guys like Shoe, nice as it is, tend to prevent those opportunities. 

And payroll. The Angels are behaving like a team on a budget right now. It looks to me like Eppler is exploring every avenue to cut unnecessary money so that he can allocate it on two legitimate starting pitchers that he feels will put this team over the top. If it were just a couple of "Gio Gonzalez" level pitchers, then I don't think Eppler would even worry about it. Clearly, all signs point toward Eppler targeting pitchers that not only go deep into games, but also sit closer to the front of the rotation. Greinke, Kikuchi, Happ, Eovaldi, Bauer...

And finally fit. JC Ramirez was tendered a contract because the Angels know exactly where he fits when he returns, the bullpen. Shoemaker? It's hard to say. He's too good to be in AAA, he won't unseat Pena as the 6th starter/long man in the bullpen because Pena fits that role better right now, and while Shoe could battle and maybe beat out Barria for the fifth starter, it's best for the future value of the team if they let a 21/22 year old kid work through things in the majors rather than get demoted every five days.

[Stradling]

I will be very disappointed if they cut Shoe lose because they are deciding to go with a youth movement right now.  I have no problem going into the season with a competition for the 5th spot settled in spring training.  That being said I don’t want that competition to happen between guys that have never thrown a pitch in the majors, not when the team is spending $160 million.  If you bring back Shoe and he gets beat out in spring training, that is fine, you throw him in the pen.  I am less worried about the health of guys like Heaney, Skaggs and Barria than others.  I will just say that if we are going into this season with those three, along with Pena and say Canning as our rotation, this will be a long ugly season.  I mean I guess if the plan was to spend that $30 million on Harper and a Trout extension that would make a little sense, but they still won’t go anywhere with that rotation.  I would gladly welcome Kikuchi, but I have no idea if he is any good, but at least that is interesting and it is another arm to throw into the equation.  I don’t have a lot of interest in Greinke, he seems more like a trade deadline acquisition.  If things are going well you get a guy like that that can win you the big game, assuming he is still that guy.  When it comes to spending that kind of money on that age of pitcher, I’d rather get him mid season so the team can assess whether or not they are in a position to need that guy, and to decide if the guy is still the guy that you can count on and is worthy of his contract.  

[Lou]

the way our roster currently sits, paying $4 million for a #5 starter would be foolish. 

[Lou]

On November 30, 2018 at 7:34 PM, Blarg said:

You can keep pissing on the guys career, you're still wrong. 

you might want to go back and read the thread again. 

are you honestly saying that Shoemaker was great? there are very few great pitchers in MLB. Shoemaker wasn't in the same hemisphere as them . 

[Blarg]

Again, keep pissing on a home grown players career. He was personable, a good teammate, pitched well, cost effective and made every effort to come back after nearly getting killed on the mound. That is part of his legacy that elevates him from other just above league average arms.

His career got side tracked by circumstances out of his control but you want to be an asshat just because he wasn't a front line starter. We've got plenty of that shit from other members that are always dissatisfied when there isn't an all star at every position. 

[Lou]

I love Shoemaker. He's a good guy with a great story. That's a completely different topic, however. If you want to get your panties in a bunch about it, knock yourself out. 

 Our discussion was only about his production. He was not great in any sense of the word. Not even close. asshat? lol  I guess the truth hurts.

speaking of Hurts . . .