How is Oakland and Seattle better than the Halos?

[floplag]

My answer to the question is that they are not, on paper, better than we are... however, they have had a better year.   Or maybe i should say luckier, less injuries, whatever.

On the field both have been far better out of the bullpen than we have, and have endured less offensive under achievement. 

Then again one could argue both of those were predictable considering how the pen was built and the fact that we went onto the season planning to give too many at bats to guys that shouldn't have gotten them. 

[Stradling]

30 minutes ago, WeatherWonk said:

That's probably true EXCEPT for one guy in the pen. The closer. And I dont know who is out there as a FA, off the top of my head.

But we have tried it on the cheap for the last couple years with Bedrosian and Parker and Middleton, and it didnt work out. Middleton might have............and, I guess, still might. But not any time soon. Probably not within the Trout Window, really.

I DO feel that if Anderson could develop a reliable change up, he could still be something special.

The guy pitching the ninth inning for the Angels have 5 blown saves this year that have resulted in losses, might be 6.  I was looking at it the other day.  Nearly all of our blown saves have been 6th-8th, which would really prove his point that we need pitchers that go deeper in games.  Edwin Diaz has 3 9th inning blown saves and the Mariners haven't lost a single one of those games.  

[Dick B Back]

1 hour ago, stormngt said:

Angel's. Would say the jury is 0out on how much an impact his bat will have.

Help... @EnglishCop!

Edit: Just noticed this is a craig, sorry but we still need @EnglishCop‘s most urgent assistance.

[Blarg]

Beane hasn't been the General Manager since 2015 so for all of you praising him for this team, it has been the work of David Frost.

Now just for one minute go back to 2014, the last time the A's were playing over .500 and what happened? The A's had a pretty strong lead in the AL West powered by their very effective starting pitching then Beane pulled the dumbest move of his career and traded Cespedes for Lester and Johnny Gomes. The A's went into a tailspin and finished 10 games out.

Beane was moved upstairs, out of the daily operations of the team and Frost took over. This season the A's made no deadline trades. 

[Angel Oracle]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

The guy pitching the ninth inning for the Angels have 5 blown saves this year that have resulted in losses, might be 6.  I was looking at it the other day.  Nearly all of our blown saves have been 6th-8th, which would really prove his point that we need pitchers that go deeper in games.  Edwin Diaz has 3 9th inning blown saves and the Mariners haven't lost a single one of those games.  

Starting pitchers going deeper, and also needing better support relievers as well 

If Norris and Petit had been kept and pitched like they have for the Cards and A'th, how many extra wins would the Halos have?

[Daniel Walton]

1 hour ago, Blarg said:

Beane hasn't been the General Manager since 2015 so for all of you praising him for this team, it has been the work of David Frost.

Now just for one minute go back to 2014, the last time the A's were playing over .500 and what happened? The A's had a pretty strong lead in the AL West powered by their very effective starting pitching then Beane pulled the dumbest move of his career and traded Cespedes for Lester and Johnny Gomes. The A's went into a tailspin and finished 10 games out.

Beane was moved upstairs, out of the daily operations of the team and Frost took over. This season the A's made no deadline trades. 

Don't forget waiver deals...that's how the Astros got Verlander (and the Angels got Upton..for example).

[WeatherWonk]

1 hour ago, Stradling said:

The guy pitching the ninth inning for the Angels have 5 blown saves this year that have resulted in losses, might be 6.  I was looking at it the other day.  Nearly all of our blown saves have been 6th-8th, which would really prove his point that we need pitchers that go deeper in games.  Edwin Diaz has 3 9th inning blown saves and the Mariners haven't lost a single one of those games.  

So, what are you saying? That we dont need a closer? That we have one? That we need to spend money on 6th-8th inning guys? That we are all fine and dandy in the 'pen?

What conclusion have you reached from this analysis?

 

 

[Daniel Walton]

26 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

Starting pitchers going deeper, and also needing better support relievers as well 

If Norris and Petit had been kept and pitched like they have for the Cards and A'th, how many extra wins would the Halos have?

4-8

[HaloNArizona]

Angels have 18 blown saves on the year and a save percentage of 55%

Oakland...9 blown saves and a save percentage of 78%

Seattle: 17 blown saves and a save percentage of 71%

[Hubs]

Just now, HaloNArizona said:

Angels have 18 blown saves on the year and a save percentage of 55%

Oakland...9 blown saves and a save percentage of 78%

Seattle: 17 blown saves and a save percentage of 71%

I wonder what the record is in games we've blown a save. It isn't 0-18, but even if they've rallied to win like 5 of those games, which would be high, it does show the need for another late inning shut-down reliever. Maybe 2.

 

 

[WeatherWonk]

Maybe we just need to hire Kevin Cash to replace Sosh in 2019 and forget about how long a starter has to go. Go with a bunch of young arms, run them out there for 2-3 innings every other day.

I mean, seriously, is this the future of baseball? Is Cash the next Maddon and Tampa Bay simply an incubator for these savants? 

Are we witnessing the extinction of dinosaurs like Kluber and Verlander, due to some cataclysmic change in the strategic climate of baseball?

It seems like a natural progression;  given the trends of the past 30-40 years, with respect to relievers. 

[Hubs]

4 minutes ago, WeatherWonk said:

Maybe we just need to hire Kevin Cash to replace Sosh in 2019 and forget about how long a starter has to go. Go with a bunch of young arms, run them out there for 2-3 innings every other day.

I mean, seriously, is this the future of baseball? Is Cash the next Maddon and Tampa Bay simply an incubator for these savants?

It seems like a natural progression;  given the trends of the past 30-40 years, with respect to relievers. 

I hate this idea. I understand that the more a pitcher sees a batter, the advantage tends to shift to the batter, but that to me, underestimates the effect of using a reliever more often, and also I think some of this is because starting pitchers are less dominant now, than they were in the past.

I'd much rather see a 6 man rotation, where pitchers go 6 innings average. That's at least 18 batters, more likely 23-24 per start. That's not too much to ask, and it still means they'd be out before they see a guy on the fourth turn.

[WeatherWonk]

I hate it, too. I despise it. It was largely a rhetorical, tongue-in-cheek response. I'm with ya, Hubs! 

But it could very well be the future of baseball. No more tieing big salaries to guys who pitch only every fifth day.

[Dick B Back]

9 minutes ago, WeatherWonk said:

Maybe we just need to hire Kevin Costner to replace Sosh in 2019 and forget about how long a starter has to go. 

FIFY

[floplag]

2 hours ago, Stradling said:

The guy pitching the ninth inning for the Angels have 5 blown saves this year that have resulted in losses, might be 6.  I was looking at it the other day.  Nearly all of our blown saves have been 6th-8th, which would really prove his point that we need pitchers that go deeper in games.  Edwin Diaz has 3 9th inning blown saves and the Mariners haven't lost a single one of those games.  

Im curious, why does it matter what inning it was in to you?   In any case the reliever failed to do his job.  He was handed a lead, and lost it.  Their job is holds and saves when they come in with a lead.  Isnt that all still the bullpen over the starters?  The starter gave them a lead, they lost it, 6th or 9th makes no difference to me.

I dont see how that proves people needing to go deeper at all, especially when every team but three in mlb all average 5.x innings per start. only 2 are above (Cle and Hou), and one below (TB), so realistically your are saying guys not going 1-2 extra outs is our demise?

Thats not sarcasm by the way... im legit curious to try to understand this logic as i dont see it based on the numbers alone

[WeatherWonk]

3 minutes ago, Dick B Back said:

FIFY

That's good thinking, soldier! 

Arte could have Tim Mead market Costner more visually from the dugout, between pitches. Capture the female market that MLB is so determined to cultivate. Maybe have him unbutton his jersey a few notches down and wear spandex trousers. Play up the Cal State Fullerton angle and maybe sell Anaheim as a Field of Dreams during the departure of the GOAT.

Just dont mess with my line alluding to The Age of Dinosaurs. I love that line!! 

[Angel Oracle]

30 minutes ago, Hubs said:

I hate this idea. I understand that the more a pitcher sees a batter, the advantage tends to shift to the batter, but that to me, underestimates the effect of using a reliever more often, and also I think some of this is because starting pitchers are less dominant now, than they were in the past.

I'd much rather see a 6 man rotation, where pitchers go 6 innings average. That's at least 18 batters, more likely 23-24 per start. That's not too much to ask, and it still means they'd be out before they see a guy on the fourth turn.

And the 6 starters would each average only 162 innings/season, I like that idea.   Then they could potentially go with just a 6 man pen, maybe sometimes 7 man pen whenever the extra utility guy isn't needed?     

[WeatherWonk]

7 minutes ago, floplag said:

Im curious, why does it matter what inning it was in to you?   In any case the reliever failed to do his job.  He was handed a lead, and lost it.  Their job is holds and saves when they come in with a lead.  Isnt that all still the bullpen over the starters?  The starter gave them a lead, they lost it, 6th or 9th makes no difference to me.

I dont see how that proves people needing to go deeper at all, especially when every team but three in mlb all average 5.x innings per start. only 2 are above (Cle and Hou), and one below (TB), so realistically your are saying guys not going 1-2 extra outs is our demise?

Thats not sarcasm by the way... im legit curious to try to understand this logic as i dont see it based on the numbers alone

Well, the logic behind starters going longer is that the bullpen, in whatever inning, may be blowing leads by being overworked.

If a starter makes it through seven innings instead of just five, someone (or everyone) in the bullpen is pitching 50% fewer innings, at least. So, in theory, there might be fewer games blown due to relievers being tired and not having their highest velocity.

That said, there is a greater chance for a comeback if a lead is blown in the middle innings. Hard to come back from a lead blown in the ninth. Conversely, there is also a greater chance for the OTHER team to score more runs in the middle innings.

A lot depends on whether you have a high-scoring team or whether you are playing one.

[WeatherWonk]

2 minutes ago, Angel Oracle said:

And the 6 starters would each average only 162 innings/season, I like that idea.   Then they could potentially go with just a 6 man pen, maybe sometimes 7 man pen whenever the extra utility guy isn't needed? 

Didnt the Angels set out to do something like this, this year? But injuries derailed it?

[Angel Oracle]

Updating my earlier post (yes, trying it this season until injuries derailing it):

And the 6 starters would each average only 162 innings/season.   I like that idea.   Because Ohtani is one of those 6 starters and also DH'ing, that still leaves 7 relievers, 8 starting position players not including DH, a backup DH/1B, backup catcher, 4th OF, and backup INF.    

That means 7 relievers each averaging at most about 70 innings/season. 

This assumes of course no injuries (ain't happening of course). 

[WeatherWonk]

So, AO, help me with this bit of math.

Given the Ohtani Clause that says he wont hit on any day before, during or after he pitches, will Ohtani hit more or less if he pitched every 5th day instead of 6th day? 

I was also wondering, If one train leaves the station ten minutes before another and is traveling twice as fast, how long before ..........................

[floplag]

8 minutes ago, WeatherWonk said:

Well, the logic behind starters going longer is that the bullpen, in whatever inning, may be blowing leads by being overworked.

If a starter makes it through seven innings instead of just five, someone (or everyone) in the bullpen is pitching 50% fewer innings, at least. So, in theory, there might be fewer games blown due to relievers being tired and not having their highest velocity.

That said, there is a greater chance for a comeback if a lead is blown in the middle innings. Hard to come back from a lead blown in the ninth. Conversely, there is also a greater chance for the OTHER team to score more runs in the middle innings.

A lot depends on whether you have a high-scoring team or whether you are playing one.

I would agree if that was the case, but its not 2 innings most days, over the course of the season it comes out to only an out or two per game. 
There will be days where its worse than that of course but over the course of a season the over work argument doesnt see that valid
Ramirez has over 61, which is probably a little high, but hes been questionable from before that.  Noone else has over 50 so far.   Oak has one in the 60s 2 in the 50s, Sea has one in the 50s.  Weve pitched a total of 60 innings more than Sea in relief over 108 games, that doesnt seem overly excessive on average.
If anything the pen has gotten better as the season has progressed blowing more leads early on digging a hole than they have of late, at least it seems that way. 
IDK i just dont see where the numbers suggest they are any more overworked than the competition to a degree that would justify 20% less in save conversions. 

[WeatherWonk]

My response was just "in theory". I really dont know if they should be considered "overworked".

But I agree with you on one thing. My sense is that the Angel bullpen has actually been better, recently, as opposed to earlier in the season. Their last two games have been exceptions to this improvement.

But I havent looked at the splits on this. They just seem to have been better, recently.

[WeatherWonk]

2 hours ago, Blarg said:

Beane hasn't been the General Manager since 2015 so for all of you praising him for this team, it has been the work of David Frost.

Now just for one minute go back to 2014, the last time the A's were playing over .500 and what happened? The A's had a pretty strong lead in the AL West powered by their very effective starting pitching then Beane pulled the dumbest move of his career and traded Cespedes for Lester and Johnny Gomes. The A's went into a tailspin and finished 10 games out.

Beane was moved upstairs, out of the daily operations of the team and Frost took over. This season the A's made no deadline trades. 

So, a general manager is not involved in daily operations? So, David Frost doesnt have to justify anything he does with Beane and Beane cant override him? Who knew??

Somebody needs to tell Mike Eppler that he's working out of his classification. GMs dont make decisions on who you draft and who you promote and who you trade.

[AngelsLakersFan]

7 hours ago, mulwin444 said:

Fisher and Beane (a minority owner) have the money, they just choose not to spend it.  

There are like 20 people at an average A's game. They are lucky to cover the salaries of their AAA roster.