Another Mass Shooting

[LBHalos17]

8 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

As far as the gun issue, there is no answer. We can say "ban all guns", but thats science fiction.

Im pereonally all for stronger gun laws, and limits on what you can own. (And that would include me habing to give up my rifle for something 'legal'). I think it would help, alot. But it wouldt stop it. It might (might) stop the sensational ones, like this one, vegas, pulse, etc. But not joe schmo who walks into his workplace and smokes his boss and coworkers. (Those happen daily, just arent newsworthy). 

Also, as far as mental health, unless were all good with the old eastern europe way of doing away with less desirables, thats not gonna happen. Even if we tried, how do we make it legal? What level of "weird" do we say you arent allowed to do what others do?

Lastly, theres no real way to see the future and know which idiot is going to snap. (Maybe me. Maybe you. Probably not tank.)(probably). By that, IMO, the vegas thing, pulse, etc is made up mainly of people who were weirdos, youd want nothing to do with them...but were coherant, not a lot of background, etc. Just one day decided they wanted more attention than they were getting.

 

Agreed; it is impossible to take all guns away.  There are too many in the hands of criminals, that it would just create more victims.  2A decisions recently have upheld the right pertaining to all firearms and even a stun gun.  I'm for more restrictive gun laws federally, that would overrule States rights.  Some States are silly with their minimum age allowances, and other outdated ideals.  I'd like a solid federal age minimum of 21 to buy/own, along with a background check (which I am pretty flexible about).  I also think the federal law should impose these new laws for concealed-carry reciprocity Nation-wide.

The mental health situation in this Country is out of control.  Fixing it should be one of the highest priorities of Government.  I'd say that close to 75% of Police-related calls involve some kind of mental health issue.  I wouldn't group the "weirdos" in with the high-risk mentally ill, but right now they seem to be treated the same; we keep having the same problems with the high-risk returning to the streets without receiving adequate treatment.  And some of the "weirdos" are allowed to grow into high-risk. 

When something insane like this happens, I always turn to my peers and say, "I'm just glad we don't understand it."  I agree it's a fine-line, but not that fine a line.  In most of these cases, the red-flags were there and were either not reported, under-reported, or under-investigated.  As for the under-investigation part of it, I'd lay that blame on this last regime.  They cut staffing, created an atmosphere of demonizing Law Enforcement, and continue to try to take benefits away.  We will not be able to hire quality people to replace retirees, if there's no support.  

As far as these specific active-shooting incidents go, I think there is a simple solution.  I'm in favor of arming willing and able (able is the vetting and training) Teachers and staff, to be able to carry-concealed on-campus.  Take down the asinine "gun-free zone" signs, and replace them with warnings of armed staff prepared to defend themselves and students.  Just changing the signs would drastically lower the number of incidents, and one great success story would go a long way toward a solution.  

And yes, I do carry-concealed just about everywhere now...  except for most visits to bars (not all though, because I live in-town and have been recognized before).  

RIP to all the Victims, living and murdered.

[ten ocho recon scout]

Well said @LBHalos17. And you cray cray for living in town, holmes! Ive run into dudes 3 cities over from where i work....lucky for me i look different without my makeup i guess.

[Amazing Larry]

Ya living in town is a ballsy move. I have a relative who is SWAT in an IE city and he keeps about a 4 city buffer between his house and his job. Even then he still CCW all the time. 

[Amazing Larry]

19 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

And Reagan escalated the mental health issue by allowing many to leave facilities in the early 1980s.  

Freedom is one thing.   The ability to approach it responsibly is quite another. 

Agreed. We need to bring back the funny farms and get these people treated. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

4 hours ago, LHalo said:

Ya living in town is a ballsy move. I have a relative who is SWAT in an IE city and he keeps about a 4 city buffer between his house and his job. Even then he still CCW all the time. 

Plus for me, im still scared to run into the person thats like "hey, youre that cop...the one that blew up the shitter at the am/pm, and ran back to your car and drove off with the lights on because you were embarassed!"

[Jason]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/16/alleged-florida-school-shooter-nikolas-cruz-was-reported-to-fbi-cops-school-but-warning-signs-missed.html

I realize the FBI has a tough job but they have to do better and be a little more diligent 

[Vegas Halo Fan]

We might be onto something.

[Tank]

https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/06/opinions/why-we-dont-give-a-damn-about-mass-shootings-robbins/index.html

this is a good read with a lot of valuable thoughts about this issue. it's worth your time.

as a nation, we're in an absolute standstill about this right now. both sides, namely the extremists it seems, are so entrenched in their views that we've become completely impotent about doing something to really address the problem. cries of "but they're trying to take all your guns" and "laws only affect those who follow them and wouldn't have prevented any of these shootings" are rampant. we also hear "congress has do something - ANYTHING! - to put a stop to these shootings." we've somehow created this as an all-or-nothing issue, and that's foolish and politically motivated.

what's abundantly clear is that there are several layers in this issue to be considered: mental health issues and better screening procedures for who can get guns, what kind of guns can/should/shouldn't be available to the public, the role of the NRA, the role of congress, arming more citizens, arming teachers, etc. There isn't any kind of easy or quick solutions for this, but maintaining the current status quo will continue to result in an increased body count. I don't know the answer, but i firmly believe that if somehow a group can set aside politics and really dig deep on finding reasonable solutions, then progress can start to be made. Until that happens, the page count in this thread will challenge the 'Trumped' thread page count sooner rather than later. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

10 hours ago, Jason said:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/16/alleged-florida-school-shooter-nikolas-cruz-was-reported-to-fbi-cops-school-but-warning-signs-missed.html

I realize the FBI has a tough job but they have to do better and be a little more diligent 

Agreed. But from my understanding, theyre arent near as many agents and we'd all think. We had some come by awhile back, talking about ISIS threats, and what theyre doing about it. I want to say they said they only had 500 agents nationwide (field agents). But maybe that just included their terrorism task force people.

[arch stanton]

11 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Agreed. But from my understanding, theyre arent near as many agents and we'd all think. We had some come by awhile back, talking about ISIS threats, and what theyre doing about it. I want to say they said they only had 500 agents nationwide (field agents). But maybe that just included their terrorism task force people.

So with a conservative estimate of 300 million people that’s an agent for every 600 thousand. They can’t be asked to do the grunt work at that level. Even when you include the obscene number of uniformed agents from every level in the country it’s not enough to do proactive policing and still respond to actual events. I hope everyone is considering their individual situations and thinking of improving their personal safety at that level and not wishing for solutions at the one third of a billion person national level 

[fan_since79]

8 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Agreed. But from my understanding, theyre arent near as many agents and we'd all think. We had some come by awhile back, talking about ISIS threats, and what theyre doing about it. I want to say they said they only had 500 agents nationwide (field agents). But maybe that just included their terrorism task force people.

I saw an article this morning (but now I have to try to find it) that said there are 13,500 field agents nationwide in the FBI. The news has been reporting that the Miami field office alone has over 1,000 agents. Not one of them received the report from the call center about Cruz.

 

[ten ocho recon scout]

4 hours ago, fan_since79 said:

I saw an article this morning (but now I have to try to find it) that said there are 13,500 field agents nationwide in the FBI. The news has been reporting that the Miami field office alone has over 1,000 agents. Not one of them received the report from the call center about Cruz.

 

That would sound more reasonable. I think that 500 number they gave us was just the terror task force guys.

[Blarg]

18 minutes ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

The government's inaction has seriously perplexed me for a long time. You would think the government would be elated to have everyone begging the government to take their guns away and happily accommodate.

Makes you wonder if an amateur really did precisely maneuver a 757 well outside its structural limits for over an hour to eventually make a 10 foot hole in the Pentagon and that the start of a never ending war and the cancellation of the 4th Amendment just kind of happened.

In your scenario where does that plane go? The pilots, the passengers, just where did they end up since you are obviously such an expert in aeronautics. You do have a degree in aeronautical engineering, right?

[AngelsLakersFan]

So why don't we just do some things that piss each side off a little in some way? The issue here is access combined with opportunity (soft targets). We can't solve this problem but we can try and address it, which you do by decreasing access and opportunity.

Here are some ideas, we should do all of them and more.

No gun rights to anyone convicted of a violent crime ever, or admitted to a mental hospital in the last X years.
Increase the ability for doctors and law enforcement to force institutionalization of 'cray cray' individuals.
Institute a nation wide gun buy back program. Pay top dollar for semi auto rifles.
There should be a national gun data base to facilitate compliance with gun regulations.
Full legal civil & criminal liability on companies, institutions or individuals who fail to report people to the 'banned list,' who sell firearms to or grant access to someone on the list.
Place limits on the amount of 'killing capacity' any one person can legally have at a time.
Require schools and other large public areas to have an armed security guard for every X number of people. Guards should have access to semi-automatic weapons.

More stuff I can't think of also...
 

[ten ocho recon scout]

As far as forcing "crazy" people into hospitals, not sure how that would work.

There are FAR more batshit insane people out there than the public ever realizes...we get calls constantly, often from them themselves (people i dont know put cameras in my house, they put a chip in my brain). But can we lock them up for that?

[Tank]

4 hours ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

The government's inaction has seriously perplexed me for a long time. You would think the government would be elated to have everyone begging the government to take their guns away and happily accommodate.

Makes you wonder if an amateur really did precisely maneuver a 757 well outside its structural limits for over an hour to eventually make a 10 foot hole in the Pentagon and that the start of a never ending war and the cancellation of the 4th Amendment just kind of happened.

Thanks for coming through!

[ten ocho recon scout]

5 hours ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

The government's inaction has seriously perplexed me for a long time. You would think the government would be elated to have everyone begging the government to take their guns away and happily accommodate.

 

Or, maybe the fact the govt never came and took the guns shuts that whole paranoid argument down?

[Amazing Larry]

16 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

As far as forcing "crazy" people into hospitals, not sure how that would work.

There are FAR more batshit insane people out there than the public ever realizes...we get calls constantly, often from them themselves (people i dont know put cameras in my house, they put a chip in my brain). But can we lock them up for that?

If they are a danger to themselves or others... yes. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

1 hour ago, LHalo said:

If they are a danger to themselves or others... yes. 

Thats already the case (but usually only a 72 hour hold, unless they actually did something, like a real suicide attempt).

But what about the person walking down the street yelling about the devil? Arguing with trees. But they havent threatened anyone.

Thats the problem. People who are insane, but havent done anything...yet.

[mtangelsfan]

1 hour ago, LHalo said:

If they are a danger to themselves or others... yes. 

Without due process? 

[ten ocho recon scout]

2 minutes ago, mtangelsfan said:

Without due process? 

Thats what im getting at.

If its established someone is a threat, be it statements or actions, yes, we can lodge them for a mental health evaluation (with current laws).

But the batshit crazy man/woman whos only batshit crazy, what do we do? And lets say we write the laws that say they go, too. Where, and for how long?

[AngelsLakersFan]

There obviously has to be due process, but do we have to wait for them to attempt mass murder before we start doing something about it? 

I'm not sure what the answer is, but more people need to be in treatment.

[mtangelsfan]

2 minutes ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Thats what im getting at.

If its established someone is a threat, be it statements or actions, yes, we can lodge them for a mental health evaluation (with current laws).

But the batshit crazy man/woman whos only batshit crazy, what do we do? And lets say we write the laws that say they go, too. Where, and for how long?

None of these are easy answers.  We are dealing with dueling rights and it is a wasp's nest.

[ten ocho recon scout]

I would say that the first logical step is banning certain weapons. But the reality is, if we magically got rid of every AR and AK, people can do just as much damage with a mini 14/30. 

If we ban all semi auto rifles lets say. Again, a simple revolver can still create carnage in a crowd.

And it still doesnt address the crazy person to begin with.

The problems are multi layered. Too many guns. Too many crazy people. And i honestly blame our culture. Social media, reality tv, etc, makes people want to be famous. Big enough ego, you do things for attention. And at least with school shootings, its almost "trendy". 

[Catwhoshatinthehat]

1 hour ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

But the batshit crazy man/woman whos only batshit crazy, what do we do? And lets say we write the laws that say they go, too. Where, and for how long?

A friend of mine who I've known for most of my life falls into this category.  He stopped working some years back and his mom has been supporting him to her own detriment because she's now in debt and has nothing for retirement.  I haven't seen him in years but I talk to his brother and was told he ended up calling the cops on himself.  He ended up in an institution for a bit but I believe since he checked himself in and wasn't considered a "danger" to anyone he was able to check himself out early against the advice of the hospital.  Watching his descent into the life he leads now has been surreal because less than 10 years ago he was out on his own, had a good job, paid cash for his car and had money in the bank. 

I'm definitely no doctor but when his issues started popping up mom's solution was to pay for whatever he needed (food, housing, etc) rather than having him get help and it just snowballed.  I know you can't force someone to get help and it's hard for any parent to see a child struggle but mom coddled him rather than ever giving him an ultimatum which his dad did.  Years ago he snapped at an ex who didn't press charges because she wanted him to get help and didn't want him to end up with a record.  The fact that someone like him may be able to legally purchase any gun scares the **** out of me.  I know in CA when you purchase a gun you have to answer some questions on the application.  That said I know people who shouldn't be purchasing guns (like my friend) may be able to pass that if they haven't been convicted of a felony or actually deemed a threat to themselves or others at one point.