Another Mass Shooting

[mtangelsfan]

6 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

The founding fathers werent exactly saints. They had their own thirst for power. Not to mention most were slaveowners.

And I think this quote from Thomas Jefferson is relevant for this take. And Im a second ammendment supporter.

 

Agreed, that is why they put in a system to change, reverse or add an amendment. 

[mtangelsfan]

6 hours ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

Thats not really fair. They just had their beliefs. Which included koresh being god, the end of the world coming, banging pre teen kids (which was with consent from the parents), etc. So they began stockpiling things like grenades and stuff. 

We all have beliefs.

Being in law enforcement I see why you would have to tow this line.  Koresh did not believe he was God, plenty of folks believe the world is ending soon.

Now the kids part I agree with and they should have arrested Koresh the hundreds of times he was out running, or at the bar, or getting the mail, or any other time he was not in the compound.  But the ATF needed their win, didn't they?

[Jason]

7 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

Well we can disagree.  I’m saying you can give people a strong financial incentive to give up their guns.  Take it or leave it.  Cash for gun drives have been demonstrable successes in California.  If the country had the political will we could make it extremely appealing.  I think plenty of people would sell their guns if they could make a good bit of money for their sacrifice. 

And as I’ve said before.  I disagree with the gang banger criminal correlation.  They have completely different motivations from the people doing these mass shooting massacres. 

 

 

Gang bangers are responsible for most mass shootings (I think mass shooting is defined by 2 or more dead). I’ve seen what they give in the buy backs. Before you sell yours to the local officials, PM me and I may be able to give you more

[Jason]

8 hours ago, UndertheHalo said:

But the framers lived in a diffrent time man.  The world has changed.  You and I don’t need a rifle to run off join the militia to defend the country. 

My country, not so much. My family, yes. How you choose to defend your’s is your business. I don’t think the government, or anyone else, has the right to tell me how I defend mine.

[arch stanton]

Is anybody ever going to ask how someone who was not a registered student of the school walked in with a bag of weapons and pulled a fire alarm ? Or why he felt compelled to do this?

Or should we just have the exact same argument about the guns again?

 

[Jason]

9 hours ago, Vladdylonglegs said:

I actually agree that assault rifles should be banned. The 2nd Amendment doesn't mean citizens can own nuclear weapons and tanks. 

They already are illegal and have been for a while. You have to go through the ringer to get one.

[Jason]

21 minutes ago, arch stanton said:

Is anybody ever going to ask how someone who was not a registered student of the school walked in with a bag of weapons and pulled a fire alarm ? Or why he felt compelled to do this?

Or should we just have the exact same argument about the guns again?

 

Personal accountability went away a long time ago. People love their political talking points more. 

[Kevin]

27 minutes ago, arch stanton said:

Is anybody ever going to ask how someone who was not a registered student of the school walked in with a bag of weapons and pulled a fire alarm ? Or why he felt compelled to do this?

Or should we just have the exact same argument about the guns again?

 

Sandy Hook had a recently installed security system set up. In the end it didn't matter. If there's a will there's a way. 

 

This is life. Might as well get used to it. 

[fan_since79]

Much more about the suspect here:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-school-shooting-cruz-20180214-story.html

There were many warning signs, and offenses that could have landed him in the juvenile justice system, but didn't. An extremely troubled individual, who arguably belonged in a mental institution. But the present laws...almost impossible to restrain people like him. He bought the gun legally.

This is not the gun's fault. There are deficiencies in the existing laws and policies to protect society, but the problem is complex with no simple solutions. We can't lock up everyone who's 'weird' or appears 'threatening'. But some changes need to be made.

His family life was also messed up. The father died years ago, and the mother was hard pressed to control him. The boy spent a lot of time roaming around, and neighbors were afraid of him. There were lots of red flags from his early childhood. He may be autistic, according to the article.

 

[arch stanton]

33 minutes ago, Kevin said:

Sandy Hook had a recently installed security system set up. In the end it didn't matter. If there's a will there's a way. 

 

This is life. Might as well get used to it. 

Should I? Let’s think about this for a minute. With a few exceptions for private school kids and homeschoolers we are compelled by law to drop our children into these buildings that were designed to keep the kids locked in and then trust that they are properly protected by strangers who are not trained in protection. Putting aside all the other mass shootings and just looking at schools, could this have pretty easily been prevented or at the very least hindered or made difficult? You can’t wrap them in bubbles but we can at least make minimum effort to keep any asshole on the street from walking in at his leisure. 

 

[Jason]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/briannasacks/the-fbi-was-warned-about-a-school-shooting-threat-from?utm_term=.ydXea4lE6#.dh30wYxva

 

[Blarg]

If only they had gotten a FISA warrant and arrested him, making up charges later...

[Tank]

2 hours ago, arch stanton said:

Should I? Let’s think about this for a minute. With a few exceptions for private school kids and homeschoolers we are compelled by law to drop our children into these buildings that were designed to keep the kids locked in and then trust that they are properly protected by strangers who are not trained in protection. Putting aside all the other mass shootings and just looking at schools, could this have pretty easily been prevented or at the very least hindered or made difficult? You can’t wrap them in bubbles but we can at least make minimum effort to keep any asshole on the street from walking in at his leisure. 

 

right on. this is an issue at my school, built in 1907 when this kind of stuff was never even considered, let alone planned for. 

our school is in the process of fundraising to build a security fence around the property, but i'm not aware of how they're planning to address visitors wandering in during the day. the honor system is required on our campus by the sheer problem of facility layout. i also talked to my principal just this morning about replacing several of the classroom doors - many, including mine, have cheap 1/4" plywood panels that would serve as no barrier whatsoever to someone with intentions to do harm. it's an easy though somewhat expensive fix, but it's necessary at a time when we may have a lockdown or have to shelter in place. as things stand now, our doors are a slight inconvenience to someone with a purpose, and the potential loss of life could be staggering on our campus.

[Kevin]

3 hours ago, arch stanton said:

Should I? Let’s think about this for a minute. With a few exceptions for private school kids and homeschoolers we are compelled by law to drop our children into these buildings that were designed to keep the kids locked in and then trust that they are properly protected by strangers who are not trained in protection. Putting aside all the other mass shootings and just looking at schools, could this have pretty easily been prevented or at the very least hindered or made difficult? You can’t wrap them in bubbles but we can at least make minimum effort to keep any asshole on the street from walking in at his leisure. 

 

My comment was more tongue in cheek because it seems like we debate the issue as far as what causes it, how to prevent it, bitch about how the other side is wrong , and then move on. I'm all for more security at schools although if it is personnel security, they are potentially easy targets because the perpetrator knows who to target first.

With a five year old starting kindergarten later this year, it is always on my mind. I just don't think much will change unfortunately even though I don't think how this life should be.

Having said that, concerts, malls, movie theaters and on and on and on. Remember when the majority of these shootings was just schools? Seems like so long ago. 

[Angel Oracle]

Why is it that this country seems to treat mental illness and the proliferation of violent video games with ignorance?

What purpose do violent video games, that show realistic images of people being shot, serve?

And Reagan escalated the mental health issue by allowing many to leave facilities in the early 1980s.  

Freedom is one thing.   The ability to approach it responsibly is quite another. 

[Angel Oracle]

4 hours ago, arch stanton said:

Is anybody ever going to ask how someone who was not a registered student of the school walked in with a bag of weapons and pulled a fire alarm ? Or why he felt compelled to do this?

Or should we just have the exact same argument about the guns again?

 

+1    Did he go in through an open fence area, or through the front of the school?  

[Tank]

1 hour ago, Angel Oracle said:

Why is it that this country seems to treat mental illness and the proliferation of violent video games with ignorance?

What purpose do violent video games, that show realistic images of people being shot, serve?

i know there have been many here who defend video games, but the maturity level of those here far exceeds high school aged kids with poor social skills.

one thought that really resonated with me came from a colleague several years ago. she said "my biggest issue with video games for kids is that they learn to solve their problems by killing those who cause them. they don't learn conflict resolution of any kind." she was spot on. most adults have tthe discernment to know the difference, but not very many kids do. it's a maturity thing and a life experience thing that these kids just haven't finished developing.

[Angel Oracle]

33 minutes ago, Tank said:

i know there have been many here who defend video games, but the maturity level of those here far exceeds high school aged kids with poor social skills.

one thought that really resonated with me came from a colleague several years ago. she said "my biggest issue with video games for kids is that they learn to solve their problems by killing those who cause them. they don't learn conflict resolution of any kind." she was spot on. most adults have tthe discernment to know the difference, but not very many kids do. it's a maturity thing and a life experience thing that these kids just haven't finished developing.

That is a great point.    I wonder if an age minimum needs to be put on certain video games.   But also the parents need to be involved, and not just ignore their children.

[ten ocho recon scout]

8 hours ago, mtangelsfan said:

Being in law enforcement I see why you would have to tow this line.  Koresh did not believe he was God, plenty of folks believe the world is ending soon.

Now the kids part I agree with and they should have arrested Koresh the hundreds of times he was out running, or at the bar, or getting the mail, or any other time he was not in the compound.  But the ATF needed their win, didn't they?

It has nothing to do with being in law enforcement. Im old enough to remember the whole thing.

Koresh told his people he was the prophet, the second coming. Talked to god personally. No different than james jones and every other whack job. He portrayed himself the same as muslims view mohammed...

He also had priors for a seperate shootout with his own people, with a hung jury. He was guilty, not convicted...like several other people.

We can agree that the ATF should have grabbed him off his property, and they shit the bed on that. (That wouldnt have taken care of the part where the compound still had scored of illegal munitions). But its just as true that if the davidians were davidian 13, the davidian crips, or the davidian vice lords, they wouldnt have been given 51 days to come out....

As far as other people thinkimg the end is near, you are correct. I dont know how many of them are stockpiling grenades, .50 cal rifles and james paddock modified rifles, though. Or sharing their preteen kids with some 30 year old guy.

[Tank]

i remember that there were also complaints from the neighbors that koresh and his group were firing weapons at all hours of the day and night on their property and that wasn't legal.

[mtangelsfan]

1 hour ago, ten ocho recon scout said:

It has nothing to do with being in law enforcement. Im old enough to remember the whole thing.

Koresh told his people he was the prophet, the second coming. Talked to god personally. No different than james jones and every other whack job. He portrayed himself the same as muslims view mohammed...

He also had priors for a seperate shootout with his own people, with a hung jury. He was guilty, not convicted...like several other people.

We can agree that the ATF should have grabbed him off his property, and they shit the bed on that. (That wouldnt have taken care of the part where the compound still had scored of illegal munitions). But its just as true that if the davidians were davidian 13, the davidian crips, or the davidian vice lords, they wouldnt have been given 51 days to come out....

As far as other people thinkimg the end is near, you are correct. I dont know how many of them are stockpiling grenades, .50 cal rifles and james paddock modified rifles, though. Or sharing their preteen kids with some 30 year old guy.

Meh, being a cult doesn't mean you should be murdered.  

[ten ocho recon scout]

22 minutes ago, mtangelsfan said:

Meh, being a cult doesn't mean you should be murdered.  

I completely agree. Aside from the child banging thing, and the illegal gun thing, i wouldnt have anything bad to say about them (other than call them crazy, but thats well within their rights).

Its like the conspiracy movement. I find a lot of it offensive, but unless one of them is actively doing something that is or likely will be harmful to someone else, its their right to believe in whatever they want. 

[ten ocho recon scout]

As far as the gun issue, there is no answer. We can say "ban all guns", but thats science fiction.

Im pereonally all for stronger gun laws, and limits on what you can own. (And that would include me habing to give up my rifle for something 'legal'). I think it would help, alot. But it wouldt stop it. It might (might) stop the sensational ones, like this one, vegas, pulse, etc. But not joe schmo who walks into his workplace and smokes his boss and coworkers. (Those happen daily, just arent newsworthy). 

Also, as far as mental health, unless were all good with the old eastern europe way of doing away with less desirables, thats not gonna happen. Even if we tried, how do we make it legal? What level of "weird" do we say you arent allowed to do what others do?

Lastly, theres no real way to see the future and know which idiot is going to snap. (Maybe me. Maybe you. Probably not tank.)(probably). By that, IMO, the vegas thing, pulse, etc is made up mainly of people who were weirdos, youd want nothing to do with them...but were coherant, not a lot of background, etc. Just one day decided they wanted more attention than they were getting.

 

[Vegas Halo Fan]

On 2/14/2018 at 3:53 PM, ten ocho recon scout said:

Or everyone rejecting him, a la the columbine f*ckwads.

There was a lot of coverage here on Columbine. One of the local news anchors at the time was a graduate of Columbine High, and she was in the news room when the story broke. It hit her pretty hard. She knew a lot of the families who were affected.

[ten ocho recon scout]

46 minutes ago, Vegas Halo Fan said:

There was a lot of coverage here on Columbine. One of the local news anchors at the time was a graduate of Columbine High, and she was in the news room when the story broke. It hit her pretty hard. She knew a lot of the families who were affected.

Years ago i worked at a restaraunt that was pretty well known. One day the graduating class of columbine (about 2 years later) came in. Kind of surreal.

Bought a book on it recently but havent had time to read it. Its weird that back then, it was huge new, shocking. Now its every few months.