Nolasco reminds me of. . .

[Blarg]

1 hour ago, Dtwncbad said:

Who and how is a fair question.  Let me ask you a number of fair questions.

Were the Angels foolish to (looks to me like) be overly optimistic on being able to count on Richards?

How about what seemed like a plan that had Shoemaker beimg better than he is?

How do you feel about using tradable pieces to acquire a Ricky Nolasco instead of patience or creativity to get a better player?

I'm frustrated thus team had too many potential #4 starters that never had a chance in the real world of being the answer.

It's a fair frustration.

Richards was medicly cleared to play, you have to trust that is what he will do. His current injury is not related to his elbow strain last season.

Shoemaker was also cleared to pitch and the only question was if psychologically if he was up for it. His current problems have nothing to do with injury but more with spotting his location. Were you expecting him to be Chris Sale? He never was and probably will settle back in to what we saw the previous two seasons.

They traded Santiago and Busenitz for Nolasco and Meyer and that the best the market was going to offer for Santiago who completely collapsed moving to the Twins.

There really wasn't much in the way of much better arms in free agency last season. Would you have been happy if the Angels out bid the Dodgers for Rich "the blister" Hill? R.A. Dickey isn't pitching like a #3. Hammel is pitching like crap, Volquez is still Edison Volcano. A lot of misses in free agency.

Frustrating but the organization is in a rebuild. It might be a while before it straightened out but throwing money and prospects at the problem is what got the team here. Might have to grit our teeth and wait out the long term solution.

[fan_since79]

These threads are a bit depressing because when we finally had a decent rotation put together, their arms fell off.

Richards, Heaney, Skaggs, and Tropeano could have made a difference this year. Nolasco and Shoemaker would be battling for the #5 spot.

Of course, Ramirez has been a nice find amidst the carnage.

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by fan_since79

[Dtwncbad]

3 minutes ago, Troll Daddy said:

Even with all the injuries ... there's still not a legit Ace in the bunch. I'm ok with the pitching this season ... of course it would be huge if Richards and Skaggs can find there way back and stay healthy this season.

Eppler has his work cut out for him in the off season. Finding that Ace would be magical

Agreed.

Believe me I understand budgetary issues, but I am hoping to see some evidence of trying to add someone to the front of the rotation rather than stockpiling depth at the back.

That would include either a free agent when the money is available or if not that, then chasing a high end projectable dude with future ace potential and not someone with the ceiling of mid rotation or "solid depth".

Seems like a fair place here to openly mention this is just my personal priority to end up with a roster capable of you g deep in a run.

I think you can win a world series with a bad 3rd baseman or a bad right fielder.  I don't think you have very good odds unless you have two stud arms in the rotation.

[Dtwncbad]

3 minutes ago, fan_since79 said:

These threads are a bit depressing because when we finally had a decent rotation put together, their arms fell off.

Richards, Heaney, Skaggs, and Tropeano could have made a difference this year. Nolasco and Shoemaker would be battling for the #5 spot.

Of course, Ramirez has been a nice find amidst the carnage.

 

Yes.  That was the best case plan and it was maybe passable if Richards was all the way back and Heaney was healthy and progressing as a go-to.

It's just demoralizing to see where the team is now compared to that "passable" plan.

The twist in the gut is there is no intellectual way to rely on Richards or Heaney going forward.

There are two huge vacancies at the top of this rotation and nobody in the minors that really looks like the solution to those vacancies.

It a tough situation to be in.

 

[fan_since79]

scenario for 2018 without a free agent signing or a trade:

Richards (assuming he's not really a China doll)

Ramirez (yes, he has "top of the rotation stuff" to quote Langston)

Skaggs (the good and healthy version)

Shoemaker? (2017 is the last chance for him to show he belongs)

??? Will Heaney be ready, or Tropeano?

I don't have a lot of faith in Nolasco or Chavez, and Meyer doesn't impress me. He might be better as a reliever. Wright?? Nope.

Edited May 8, 2017 by fan_since79

[Dtwncbad]

6 minutes ago, fan_since79 said:

scenario for 2018 without a free agent signing:

Richards (assuming he's not really a China doll)

Ramirez (yes, he has "top of the rotation stuff" to quote Langston)

Skaggs (the good and healthy version)

Shoemaker? (2017 is the last chance for him to show he belongs)

??? Will Heaney be ready, or Tropeano?

I don't have a lot of faith in Nolasco or Chavez.

I love an actual exchange like this where there is no gotcha.

I take no issue with your analysis, but it just seems like that plan would have the Angels rotation very delicate, vulnerable and trying to get lucky to some degree.

Those pieces individually seems properly examined.

I would say what is missing in that plan is a 200 inning 3.50 era stud.

How you get that is entirely a different discussion admittedly.  I just think they need it.

[Stradling]

33 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Agreed.

Believe me I understand budgetary issues, but I am hoping to see some evidence of trying to add someone to the front of the rotation rather than stockpiling depth at the back.

That would include either a free agent when the money is available or if not that, then chasing a high end projectable dude with future ace potential and not someone with the ceiling of mid rotation or "solid depth".

Seems like a fair place here to openly mention this is just my personal priority to end up with a roster capable of you g deep in a run.

I think you can win a world series with a bad 3rd baseman or a bad right fielder.  I don't think you have very good odds unless you have two stud arms in the rotation.

Ok, how do you add someone to the front of the rotation?  Since you can't really do that by simply waving your wand, the smart thing to do this year was to do what Eppler did.  Is it working, no, but what choice did he have?  I guess he could have just acquired an ace by trading Trout.  I remember that future ace we had in our farm system that we traded for Simmons, now that guy is no longer considered a future ace.  Sure would be nice to have him still. 

[Dtwncbad]

13 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Ok, how do you add someone to the front of the rotation?  Since you can't really do that by simply waving your wand, the smart thing to do this year was to do what Eppler did.  Is it working, no, but what choice did he have?  I guess he could have just acquired an ace by trading Trout.  I remember that future ace we had in our farm system that we traded for Simmons, now that guy is no longer considered a future ace.  Sure would be nice to have him still. 

My sister has been divorced four times.  If I observe that something is likely wrong with what she is doing will you snap at me with "Tell me who she was supposed to marry!  Who?  How?"

Either you get the contained point or you don't.

 

 

[Troll Daddy]

Do we go after Darvish in the off season ... another Texas free agent?

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

I don't disagree.  Its just that this organization is a premium franchise in a premium market.  I guess I just expect a better roster, and maybe its not any more complicated than that.

I dont really want to accept that the Angels are "fine" if I just compare them to teams with fewer resources and in inferior markets.

You forget they are trying to recover from having made some premium mistakes....    This team was run into the ground -- welcome to the painful recovery.   

[Stradling]

13 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

My sister has been divorced four times.  If I observe that something is likely wrong with what she is doing will you snap at me with "Tell me who she was supposed to marry!  Who?  How?"

Either you get the contained point or you don't.

 

 

i get your point.  But you ignore they have change their philosophy two years ago and it will take time to fix what was broken. 

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

Hundreds and hundreds of players in the minors.  Which names are the arms with they best chances of being #2 or better starters in the majors in the next 3 years?  Not mid rotation or back of the rotation depth, but someone you would gladly hand the ball to in a critical start deep in a postseason series.

Crickets.

Am I a bad fan for seeing that and being willing to openly talk about it?

Talking about it while ignoring what caused the problem isn't really an example of someone wanting to talk about anything -- its whining.  

You know why they are where they are...   The people chiefly responsible for the mistakes at the farm level are gone.   Pretty much anyone paying attention knew they were biding their time this season while riding out the final year of the Hamilton fiasco and opening up some payroll. 

I don't think anyone knows what the quick fix is, but I think most agree we have to start by infusing the system with better talent than it's had in a long, long time.   It's gonna take time -- and if the topic is purely pitching, a little luck.

[Dtwncbad]

6 minutes ago, Stradling said:

i get your point.  But you ignore they have change their philosophy two years ago and it will take time to fix what was broken. 

I know it will take time.  I am just suffering from this dead period.  I can't follow the team blindly like I did 30 years ago.  I need a nugget of hope.  And in this "it takes time" zone we are in, I am so paranoid they will prioritize the wrong things.

I want to one day see a roster built to win a whole slew of games 4-3 and 3-2.

 

[Brent Maguire]

Ricky Nolasco is what he is: An innings eating #5 starter who is basically here to be an able body to take stress off the bullpen. Chavez is in the same mold. Nolasco really wouldn't be a problem if the Angels could just keep healthy arms. If Richards and Skaggs were doing their thing, you'd have 2 capable 2/3 arms then some guys who eat innings behind them, which would hypothetically be enough to make this team competitive. The problem is Nolasco is now thrusted into a situation that puts more pressure on him.

[Angel Oracle]

3 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

I loved the Heaney trade.  All my complaining might not be consuming me if he was out there dealing.

It's just gross frustration.  The one thing I can't stomach is a starting staff that is overmatched 4 out of 5 nights.

And that's what I see right now with not much evidence of it changing.

I am hopeful that Heaney can make it all the way back.   He has a polished delivery which hopefully puts less pressure on the rebuilt tendon.

Then again, Skaggs' delivery is smooth enough.   But he gets hurt waay too often.

[Dick B Back]

There's a lot of complaints in this thread and as a Halos fan since 1964 I truly understand, but premium franchise in a premium market... hmm. I'm not sure what the definition of premium franchise is. Baseball version of the Clippers is probably more accurate. 

I think to be considered a premium franchise, having big bucks might help but historical relevance might even mean more, i.e. Yanks, Red Sox, Cubs, Dodgers, Cards. Even when the Cubbies went through decades of suckage, their fan base was better than ours.

One world series win in a lifetime along with a long history for over paying players past their prime just doesn't do it.

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by Dick B Back
Bad typing skills on little bitty keys.

[AngelsFanSince86]

I believe that the front office is holding themselves accountable.  If they weren't they would be making the same short-sighted mistakes.  Yes, this is a dead period.  Eppler put together a team that didn't mortgage the future, acts as a stepping stone for being a true contender, and at the same time is a team where if things break right they can compete.  When you go to games you aren't very inspired by what is out on the field for the most part, but you still feel like they can win most games even when they are down.  

A lot of it comes down to their pitching though, which is how you started this thread.  The Angels have had some of the worst luck in recent memory with injuries to their pitchers and there really isn't anything they can do about that.  They did something solid and traded for Heaney.  He looked like everything he was cracked up to be until his injury.  Shoemaker came up through the ranks and surprised everyone and you have to credit the FO for that.  What happened to him was a freak accident and likely threw him off mentally.  Tropeano looked like a solid middle of the rotation guy until he went down with injury.  Richards is an ace that can't stay healthy.  Skaggs was drafted by the Angels and came back to them and looked the part until he went down.  That is 4 guys who came up with the Angels and one smart trade they made for guys who would make up one of the best rotations in the league if the could all just stay healthy.  You have to credit the Angels for these pitchers and give them a break for the incredibly poor luck they have had with their injuries.  

They have done a lot to put a solid rotation up there and keep getting hit with bad luck.  Richards and Skaggs will be back before the end of the season.  Heaney and Tropeano will likely come back some time next season.  The Angels will have a lot of money freed up and the FA class gets a little better next year and is possibly the best ever in 2019.  By that time their improved drafting should start to pay dividends at the MLB level.  Its not fun to have to sit and wait, but it is smart.  They are headed in the right direction and getting anxious is what has killed them in the past.  They are better this year than last year.  Their farm is also better.  They also have more money to spend.  Be patient and be happy this team doesn't feel utterly hopeless like they did last year.

[Dtwncbad]

I gotta just breathe it out.  Patience.

[Inside Pitch]

2 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

I gotta just breathe it out.  Patience.

Not sure if will make you feel any better but I think everyone is frustrated.   

Having gone from also-rans that had to catch breaks to a team that you could almost count on being competitive it's hard to find ourselves back in that second division category.  But you know what we all know -- they effed up and are riding out the damage.  This is IMO temporary, the organization seems smarter than at any point since Stoneman left and thankfully they haven't bought any concrete shoes in a few a years. It's been painful given they have tge best player on the planet on the team but probably the smartest move they could have made.  People just need to separate what they are doing now and their most recent motivations from what they did previously -- the PR coming from the team will always be happy horseshit stuff -- it's just how it is...

There are problem spots on the roster and the farm is still very much a work in progress but there is reason to believe things are on the mend. 

[eligrba]

9 hours ago, Dtwncbad said:

Show me a roster recently where they were entering a season with two guys good enough to call top of the rotation guys.

Respectfully, citing rosters with Weaver makes my point.  Its been  LONG time since Weaver was ace matetial.

Or should we be feeling good since at one time we had Ryan and Tanana?

Today matters.

Obviously you do not remember those years.  It was Tanana and Ryan and three days of crying........That was not a "good" rotation.

[Lou]

10 hours ago, mulwin444 said:

In the last 30 years, the Yankees have been 7 times and won 5, with 6 visits and 4 wins within an 9 year period (1995 to 2003), so the majority of their success was pre-free agency when there were 16 teams.  Since 2010, they have spent more than anybody and haven't won anything.  Nothing is guaranteed...

18 of their titles were pre-1960 when each league had 8 teams and there were no divisional playoffs to get through. 

 

[Lou]

The dodgers haven't been to the World Series in 29 years.

in the last 5 seasons alone, they've spent about $1.2 BILLION on payroll.

BILLION.

 

 

(or the same amount as Hillary spent on her losing campaign) 

[Vegas Halo Fan]

12 hours ago, Blarg said:

It is a league wide problem.

We see it mainly in our guys because we follow closely, but it is happening all over baseball. The Mets just put Noah Syndergaard on the 60-day DL, 

Here is a list of current MLB players on the disabled list. Note how many are pitchers. Boston has five pitchers on the DL, Seattle has seven, we have eight. I don't know how you compete like that - or plan for it.

[Stradling]

Nice outing by our anchor tonight. 

[Blarg]

13 hours ago, Blarg said:

He has had one bad outing this season that has skewed his stats. Outside of that he has given up a total of 8 10 runs over the other 4 5 games. Maybe you are not seeing the forest from the one tree.

Or maybe you're just in a mood. Nolasco isn't an ace but he was never traded for to be an ace, it was a swap for Santiago which also bought Alex Meyer. As a mid rotation guy he is fine.

Updated.