Nolasco reminds me of. . .

[Dtwncbad]

The answer to address better frontline pitching is draft better, develop better, and pursue the right free agents.

The reality is it is perfectly ok to sit here disappointed in the starting pitching without having a 20/20 hindsight plan or pretending to have a crystal ball.

I am doing nothing more than just holding the organization accountable for the mess on the mound.

Should they be accountable?

Should I expect them to be accountable going forward?

Is it OK to be frustrated if going into 2018 or 2019 the team doesnt have the arms?

How many years in a row is it OK to be soft at the top of the rotation before it is natural to bitch about it?

 

[mulwin444]

23 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Were the Angels foolish to (looks to me like) be overly optimistic on being able to count on Richards?

How about what seemed like a plan that had Shoemaker beimg better than he is?

How do you feel about using tradable pieces to acquire a Ricky Nolasco instead of patience or creativity to get a better player?

I'm frustrated thus team had too many potential #4 starters that never had a chance in the real world of being the answer.

It's a fair frustration.

I don't think the Angels were counting on Richards as much they were hoping he was available, hence why Eppler stocked AAA with a bunch of SPs who had struggled with inconsistency/injury but still have potential for high-to-mid rotation success if they put it all together.  Guys like Banuelos, Scribner, Meyer, and Campos.  Are they guarantees?  No, but Eppler found some depth that is seriously lacking in the mid to high minors and provided less of a drop in talent that was evident from what was promoted the last couple of seasons..

As for Shoemaker, he's always given up the long ball when he's been off but when he's on he's dominant as evident by his by his ERA+, WHIP, K/9 and the fact that, prior to getting beaned in the head, he was pitching like a solid 3 starter.  He is who is, he's valuable, and his season total will fall in line eventually.

The Angels weren't getting much for Hector Santiago.  I know I wasn't a fan of the trade of at the time but I understand now what Eppler is trying to do so I don't have a huge problem with it.  Meyer has ace stuff but 5/AAA starter command...somewhere in there you will have a solid 2 starter or a dominant back-end BP piece.  Every GM in baseball has access to baseball_reference.com and can see what Santiago was - a talented pitcher that will struggle to give you six innings and even out to be a 4 starter over the course of a season.  

Point is, every team is looking for cheap, talented pitching and so, in competing with 29 other teams, you are not going to get everyone you are seeking at the price you want.  

[fan_since79]

The weird injuries have screwed everything up, so we're forced to have Nolasco 'anchoring' our rotation. Another problem is we don't have much of a farm system. Nate Smith and Middleton, who we just brought up. I can't think of any other names at the moment.

edit: Mulwin has supplied some names. I forgot about Campos. But will any of these guy succeed at the major league level?

Edited May 8, 2017 by fan_since79

[Stradling]

12 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

The answer to address better frontline pitching is draft better, develop better, and pursue the right free agents.

The reality is it is perfectly ok to sit here disappointed in the starting pitching without having a 20/20 hindsight plan or pretending to have a crystal ball.

I am doing nothing more than just holding the organization accountable for the mess on the mound.

Should they be accountable?

Should I expect them to be accountable going forward?

Is it OK to be frustrated if going into 2018 or 2019 the team doesnt have the arms?

How many years in a row is it OK to be soft at the top of the rotation before it is natural to bitch about it?

 

Ok so who should they have signed?  

[Dtwncbad]

2 minutes ago, mulwin444 said:

I don't think the Angels were counting on Richards as much they were hoping he was available, hence why Eppler stocked AAA with a bunch of SPs who had struggled with inconsistency/injury but still have potential for high-to-mid rotation success if they put it all together.  Guys like Banuelos, Scribner, Meyer, and Campos.  Are they guarantees?  No, but Eppler found some depth that is seriously lacking in the mid to high minors and provided less of a drop in talent that was evident from what was promoted the last couple of seasons..

As for Shoemaker, he's always given up the long ball when he's been off but when he's on he's dominant as evident by his by his ERA+, WHIP, K/9 and the fact that, prior to getting beaned in the head, he was pitching like a solid 3 starter.  He is who is, he's valuable, and his season total will fall in line eventually.

The Angels weren't getting much for Hector Santiago.  I know I wasn't a fan of the trade of at the time but I understand now what Eppler is trying to do so I don't have a huge problem with it.  Meyer has ace stuff but 5/AAA starter command...somewhere in there you will have a solid 2 starter or a dominant back-end BP piece.  Every GM in baseball has access to baseball_reference.com and can see what he was - a talented pitcher that will struggle to give you six innings and even out to be a 4 starter over the course of a season.  

Point is, every team is looking for cheap, talented pitching and so, in competing with 29 other teams, you are not going to get everyone you are seeking at the price you want.  

I don't disagree.  Its just that this organization is a premium franchise in a premium market.  I guess I just expect a better roster, and maybe its not any more complicated than that.

I dont really want to accept that the Angels are "fine" if I just compare them to teams with fewer resources and in inferior markets.

 

[nando714]

52 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Ok give me a realistic option, don't just complain about it.  You can't create one out of mid air.  So you can draft and develop one, which they tried with Richards but he can't stay healthy.  You can trade for one, like my Chris Sale comment you were responding too or you can sign one.  So who and how?  

The angels have to spend money for immediate success. It takes years to develop draft picks most of the time. Do the angels have patience especially with mike Trout only having a few more years left?

imo they have to spend and hope those free agents don't decline fast (they usually do)

[Dtwncbad]

15 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Ok so who should they have signed?  

Look I know why you ask that question, but being disciplined to stick to the specigic point I am making, I dont need to answer that question.

Is ownership and the front office accountable for the lack of high quality front line starting pitching or not?

Is it acceptable in professional sports for fans to SEE the problem and be frustrated?

This team wants to act like they are a premium franchise, so what comes with that is accountability.

I expect better.

[mulwin444]

1 minute ago, Dtwncbad said:

I don't disagree.  Its just that this organization is a premium franchise in a premium market.  I guess I just expect a better roster, and maybe its not any more complicated than that.

I dont really want to accept that the Angels are "fine" if I just compare them to teams with fewer resources and in inferior markets.

 

The fact of the matter is, after Eddie Bane was let go, the Reagins/Dipoto-led drafts seriously gutted this franchise of talent starting with the 2010 draft.  The Angels had 5 picks in the top 50 and ended up with Bedrosian, Cowart, and a collection of stiffs (Chevy Clarke, Taylor Lindsey, and Ryan Bolden) and it didn't improve from there.  Dipoto's drafts were eye-brow raising and he traded away a shit-load of young talent for a lot of "Meh".  He drafted CJ Cron when Wong, Panik and Bradley were still there...lost the 2012 pick for Pujols...lost the 2013 pick for Josh Hamilton...got Sean Newcomb in 2014 (who netted us Simmons)...and got Taylor Ward in 2015.

That's a huge amount of talent either passed over due to poor scouting or lost due to rolling the dice on free Agents that didn't pan out.

Eppler's draft with Thaiss is promising so far and his low cost moves has provided depth that Dipoto didn't seem to value.  It may not seem like it but the Angels are recovering from 5+ years of bad moves that mortgaged the future for quick, superficial solutions. 

[Dtwncbad]

Hundreds and hundreds of players in the minors.  Which names are the arms with they best chances of being #2 or better starters in the majors in the next 3 years?  Not mid rotation or back of the rotation depth, but someone you would gladly hand the ball to in a critical start deep in a postseason series.

Crickets.

Am I a bad fan for seeing that and being willing to openly talk about it?

[Dtwncbad]

1 minute ago, mulwin444 said:

The fact of the matter is, after Eddie Bane was let go, the Reagins/Dipoto-led drafts seriously gutted this franchise of talent starting with the 2010 draft.  The Angels had 5 picks in the top 50 and ended up with Bedrosian, Cowart, and a collection of stiffs (Chevy Clarke, Taylor Lindsey, and Ryan Bolden) and it didn't improve from there.  Dipoto's drafts were eye-brow raising and he traded away a shit-load of young talent for a lot of "Meh".  He drafted CJ Cron when Wong, Panik and Bradley were still there...lost the 2012 pick for Pujols...lost the 2013 pick for Josh Hamilton...got Sean Newcomb in 2014 (who netted us Simmons)...and got Taylor Ward in 2015.

That's a huge amount of talent either passed over due to poor scouting or lost due to rolling the dice on free Agents that didn't pan out.

Eppler's draft with Thaiss is promising so far and his low cost moves has provided depth that Dipoto didn't seem to value.  It may not seem like it but the Angels are recovering from 5+ years of bad moves that mortgaged the future for quick, superficial solutions. 

Oh I get the historical record.

I am just being the honest fan saying this roster is not inspiring and I don't REALLY see the solution developing in any meaningful way.  Is 2018 another throw away "maybe .500" year?

How about 2019?

It's pro sports.  Fans wanting a high quality roster or the realistic soon hope of one is not out of bounds.

 

[Stradling]

17 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Look I know why you ask that question, but being disciplined to stick to the specigic point I am making, I dont need to answer that question.

Is ownership and the front office accountable for the lack of high quality front line starting pitching or not?

Is it acceptable in professional sports for fans to SEE the problem and be frustrated?

This team wants to act like they are a premium franchise, so what comes with that is accountability.

I expect better.

OK, Well you can't build a pitching staff and a farm in a year and a half, so as far as the front office goes, they shouldn't be held accountable.  As for that same front office, they have acquired Heaney, Chavez, Nolasco, and a bunch of former good prospects.  The most they have paid for a single player with this new front office is Maybin is getting $9 million this year.  So there really hasn't been starting pitching that matches your description, front line starter, that has been available with the current budget.  So those are my answers regarding accountability.  It isn't an easy solution, and if it only cost money I am sure Arte would have solved it. 

[mulwin444]

1 minute ago, Dtwncbad said:

Oh I get the historical record.

I am just being the honest fan saying this roster is not inspiring and I don't REALLY see the solution developing in any meaningful way.  Is 2018 another throw away "maybe .500" year?

How about 2019?

It's pro sports.  Fans wanting a high quality roster or the realistic soon hope of one is not out of bounds.

 

I think Eppler's moves this year were to put a competitive team on the field with some value and hope for some luck because the available free agents.  Look who we had to choose from last season:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017-mlb-free-agent-tracker

Who would you have given up a draft pick for last season?  Would you want Encarnacion at 1B for $20 mil a season?  Reddick at $13 mil?  Walker at $17 mil?Melancon at $15.5 mil?

I think what we saw in 16/17 is as close to a rebuild as the Angels, as a top tier revenue club, were willing to commit as they didn't sign free agents that would cost them draft picks and jeopardize the foundation they are trying to build in the minor leagues.  Unfortunately, 2010-2015 essentially made this necessary in order to give them a shot at being successful in 2018 and beyond.  

[Stradling]

18 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Hundreds and hundreds of players in the minors.  Which names are the arms with they best chances of being #2 or better starters in the majors in the next 3 years?  Not mid rotation or back of the rotation depth, but someone you would gladly hand the ball to in a critical start deep in a postseason series.

Crickets.

Am I a bad fan for seeing that and being willing to openly talk about it?

No you aren't a bad fan, just an unrealistic one.  You want a solution today when there isn't one.  Look around baseball, how many great pitchers are there amongst the hundreds and hundreds of players? 

[Dtwncbad]

1 minute ago, mulwin444 said:

I think Eppler's moves this year were to put a competitive team on the field with some value and hope for some luck because the available free agents.  Look who we had to choose from last season:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2017-mlb-free-agent-tracker

Who would you have given up a draft pick for last season?  Would you want Encarnacion at 1B for $20 mil a season?  Reddick at $13 mil?  Walker at $17 mil?Melancon at $15.5 mil?

I think what we saw in 16/17 is as close to a rebuild as the Angels, as a top tier revenue club, were willing to commit as they didn't sign free agents that would cost them draft picks and jeopardize the foundation they are trying to build in the minor leagues.  Unfortunately, 2010-2015 essentially made this necessary in order to give them a shot at being successful in 2018 and beyond.  

No argument.

It's just a painful roster for me to try to be inspired watching.

I'm not inspired.

[mulwin444]

Just now, Dtwncbad said:

No argument.

It's just a painful roster for me to try to be inspired watching.

I'm not inspired.

And you are viewing the nuts and bolts of roster construction, which is boring,

Apart from Trout, there is nothing sexy about this team other than they can be competitive night after night...not dominant...not assured...but competitive.

You can see the plan in place, with the small commitments and one and two year signings; what is required is patience to allow Eppler to and fix what damage Reagins/Dipoto wrought.  I know patience is limited due to Trout's presence but you either try to turn things around at some point or you continue to fail.

[Dtwncbad]

1 minute ago, Stradling said:

No you aren't a bad fan, just an unrealistic one.  You want a solution today when there isn't one.  Look around baseball, how many great pitchers are there amongst the hundreds and hundreds of players? 

Well except I don't expect the bottom 2/3 of franchises to all have what I expect the Angels to have.

And just to be clear, the minimum I expect is not to have two aces all the time, it is to be a team that could sometime soon.

I dont see it any time soon.  It is discouraging.

Literally all my frustration would be gone if the team had a couple of guys in the minors developing that had high ceilings.  Following guys like that in their development is almost as fun as having beasts in the major league rotation.

[Dtwncbad]

1 minute ago, mulwin444 said:

And you are viewing the nuts and bolts of roster construction, which is boring,

Apart from Trout, there is nothing sexy about this team other than they can be competitive night after night...not dominant...not assured...but competitive.

You can see the plan in place, with the small commitments and one and two year signings; what is required is patience to allow Eppler to and fix what damage Reagins/Dipoto wrought.  I know patience is limited due to Trout's presence but you either try to turn things around at some point or you continue to fail.

I hate "competitive" . . .to me for a premium franchise it is code word for floundering.  And its patronizing to the fans.

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

I hate "competitive" . . .to me for a premium franchise it is code word for floundering.  And its patronizing to the fans.

Then you must hate major league baseball, considering going to the World Series or deep into the playoffs year after year seldom happens.

[fan_since79]

20 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Then you must hate major league baseball, considering going to the World Series or deep into the playoffs year after year seldom happens.

Yankees have gone to the Series 40 different times, and to the playoffs 52 times total.

 

[Stradling]

2 minutes ago, fan_since79 said:

Yankees have gone to the Series 40 different times, and to the playoffs 52 times total.

 

Yes, you picked the one.  Thank you for proving my point.  You are super good at that though FS.  Like when you compare pitchers today to the few pitchers that were doing crazy things like Ryan and Cy Young.  Haha. 

[fan_since79]

Clayton Kershaw is currently doing some crazy things.

There are some others too.

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by fan_since79

[mulwin444]

4 minutes ago, fan_since79 said:

Yankees have gone to the Series 40 different times, and to the playoffs 52 times total.

 

In the last 30 years, the Yankees have been 7 times and won 5, with 6 visits and 4 wins within an 9 year period (1995 to 2003), so the majority of their success was pre-free agency when there were 16 teams.  Since 2010, they have spent more than anybody and haven't won anything.  Nothing is guaranteed...

[Dtwncbad]

29 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Then you must hate major league baseball, considering going to the World Series or deep into the playoffs year after year seldom happens.

Yes I expect to go to the World Series or deep into the playoffs year after year.  Yeah that's what I have been saying here.  You got me.

Back to the actual subject now or is it going to be an endless cute banter of arguing what you are trying to hear?

Let me help you then.  I expect the Angels to have top 3 Cy Young vote getters every single year and never lose a playoff game and also have $5 box seats and free beer.

[fan_since79]

2 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Yes I expect to go to the World Series or deep into the playoffs year after year.  Yeah that's what I have been saying here.  You got me.

Back to the actual subject now or is it going to be an endless cute banter of arguing what you are trying to hear?

Let me help you then.  I expect the Angels to have top 3 Cy Young vote getters every single year and never lose a playoff game and also have $5 box seats and free beer.

Year after year, the Angels offer a 14-ounce cup of beer for $4.50 at the stadium.

That's a rare thing in this day and age.

[Troll Daddy]

Even with all the injuries ... there's still not a legit Ace in the bunch. I'm ok with the pitching this season ... of course it would be huge if Richards and Skaggs can find there way back and stay healthy this season.

Eppler has his work cut out for him in the off season. Finding that Ace would be magical