Angels-Phillies discussing trade...

[VariousCrap]

Yeah but probably not by trading offense.

 

 

 

Their offensive woes will be better when Puig and Crawford return.  Their rotation though is in trouble long term without Ryu.

[tdawg87]

I'd rather have Drew Stubbs than Revere. He wouldn't cost anything. 

 

You mean the guy who has actually been worse than Joyce and Cron and he hits in the biggest hitters park in baseball?

 

I agree, lets get that guy.

[Erstad Grit]

You mean the guy who has actually been worse than Joyce and Cron and he hits in the biggest hitters park in baseball?

 

I agree, lets get that guy.

 

He was great last year. He never really got consistent playing time this year. 

[Hardc0reFromDaStreetz]

drew stubbs certainly has more upside than revere.

[tdawg87]

Yeah I'm gonna need an explanation on that statement. He's 3 years older than Revere.

[Erstad Grit]

Yeah I'm gonna need an explanation on that statement. He's 3 years older than Revere.

 

Last year Stubbs was very good and wouldn't cost anything. 

 

Revere has never been good and would cost a lot.

 

Cleared up? 

[Inside Pitch]

There's nothing wrong with the data IP, but I think you're cherry picking a bit here.  That data doesn't tell the story, especially with Howard, it just tells you the result. 

 

Ryan Howard, former MVP, ludicrous contract, aging former star, great plate discipline and power, not so great contact or health.  

 

They all describe him.  In 2012, he was coming off a ruptured achilles tendon.  Fact is, you can't hit if you can't use your feet.  Just ask Albert.  So go ahed and throw that one out.  2013, Ryan Howard needs knee surgery, out 2 months and rehabbing/gaining strength the rest of the time.  Fact is, you can't hit if you can't use your knees.  Again, just ask Albert.  So go ahead and throw that one out.  2014, Ryan Howard finally gets to play a full season fully healthy, first time that's happened since 2011, he's bound to be rusty, and he DEFINITELY WAS.  He was just plain bad.  but on the bright side, his offense picked up a little in the second half of last year. 

 

What he's doing this year does not have me convinced that he's returned to form.  On the contrary, what he's done this year has me convinced that we're now seeing who Ryan Howard is in the downslope of his career.  He's going to hit 30 DB's for you, probably around 30 HR's too.  He also won't be able to play a darn bit of defense for you, he's strictly DH, and he probably won't hit for average and get on base too much either.  He just gives you raw power. 

 

Now if I want to cherry pick stats and compare two entities that absolutely shouldn't be compared, heck I could do that all day with you. For example...

 

Last three healthy seasons oWAR

Ryan Howard: 2.6, 2.5, 0.3 = 5.4

Collin Cowgill: 0.1, 0.1, 1.2 = 1.4

 

Yeah, those are ridiculous.  But the point is, you cannot compare Collin cowgill and Ryan Howard and expect not to be questioned.  Howard would only be an offensive acquisition, the guy won't be playing LF for the Angels, just like Collin Cowgill won't be playing 1B for the Angels.  Howard won't be a pinch runner, Cowgill would.  The only thing that matters, when comparing two entities that don't have much in common is comparing what  they DO have in common.  And what do Cowgill and Howard have in common?  

 

Offense.  That's the only way to compare them.  And this year, Cowgill's worth -0.2, and Howard's worth 0.4, and it's only May.  Meaning by the end of the year, at this rate Collin Cowgill will be worth -0.8 and Howard 1.6

 

Moral of the story, don't cherry pick stats, and use RELEVANT comparisons. 

 

 

I'm not cherrry-picking, you're trying to put lipstick on a pig while creating false narratives.   You cant simply compare oWAR..  WAR is determined based on their positions -- the formulas are different because the offensive contributions are different at every position -- ditto the defense.  

 

So again...  I gave you the complete picture of his total contributions to his team over a period of 5 years and compared it to a guy's total contribution to his team over 2 years...   Now you want to compare just offense and only this year while at the same time talking about cherry picking?  

 

So spare me this talk about RELEVANT comparisons, at least until you learn how to use the data.  

Ryan Howard hasnt been a truly useful player since 2009.  

[Hardc0reFromDaStreetz]

Yeah I'm gonna need an explanation on that statement. He's 3 years older than Revere.

pretty simple. last year he had 15hr and 20sb in 388 AB's with an .821 OPS. With those stats he'd be our 2nd best hitter on the team, ya, even better than Calhoun. He also plays decent defense. He also was just sent down to the minors and is an ultimate buy low candidate.

[Second Base]

Touchy aren't we IP?  Relax.  You use WAR, I used oWAR, we use the tools BBREF has provided us with.  Oddly enough, we both have the same agenda too.  The only difference is that I am openly cherry picking, whereas you seem to be a closet cherry picker (is there such a thing?).  

[VariousCrap]

 Revere has never been good and would cost a lot.

 

 

 

Doubt it.

[Inside Pitch]

I was going to name all the left handed power hitters that had success for the Angels. However all I could think of is GA and tiexera but Tiex was a switch hitter. Then I can't think of another until Reggie jackson.

 

You might be surprised to find that GA's road numbers were very very slightly better than his home numbers for his career.    GA was a neat hitter in that he would very often run a reverse L/R split too.

Reggie played is a different Big A -- the park was enclosed in those days.

[Bruce Nye]

I was going to name all the left handed power hitters that had success for the Angels. However all I could think of is GA and tiexera but Tiex was a switch hitter. Then I can't think of another until Reggie jackson.

 

 

Wally Joyner

[tdawg87]

pretty simple. last year he had 15hr and 20sb in 388 AB's with an .821 OPS. With those stats he'd be our 2nd best hitter on the team, ya, even better than Calhoun. He also plays decent defense. He also was just sent down to the minors and is an ultimate buy low candidate.

 

In the NL. Playing half his games in Coors Field, the literal opposite of Angels Stadium. His only stint in the AL saw mediocre numbers and he was in a neutral park, in a division of mostly hitters parks.

 

I don't get it. He has an 89 OPS+ in almost 3000 plate appearances. He's also a centerfielder. Just because he is good in center doesn't mean he would be good in left.

 

Is Revere that much better? Not really. But he's 3 years younger and despite his horrible walk rate he still gets on base more and K's a HELL of a lot less.

[Lou]

I'm not cherrry-picking, you're trying to put lipstick on a pig while creating false narratives.   You cant simply compare oWAR..  WAR is determined based on their positions -- the formulas are different because the offensive contributions are different at every position -- ditto the defense.  

 

So again...  I gave you the complete picture of his total contributions to his team over a period of 5 years and compared it to a guy's total contribution to his team over 2 years...   Now you want to compare just offense and only this year while at the same time talking about cherry picking?  

 

So spare me this talk about RELEVANT comparisons, at least until you learn how to use the data.  

Ryan Howard hasnt been a truly useful player since 2009.  

 

i'd take these useless seasons any time

 

31 HRs  108 rbi   .859 ops

 

33 HRs   116 rbi   .835 ops

[stormngt]

Howard would not be playing any defense for the Angels he would be a DH. Using both defensive and offensive War comparison is silly when one guy doesn't play defense and the other greatest contributions is his defense.

how about comparing Howards WAR against our current DH playets? Cron and Joyce

I'm not cherrry-picking, you're trying to put lipstick on a pig while creating false narratives. You cant simply compare oWAR.. WAR is determined based on their positions -- the formulas are different because the offensive contributions are different at every position -- ditto the defense.

So again... I gave you the complete picture of his total contributions to his team over a period of 5 years and compared it to a guy's total contribution to his team over 2 years... Now you want to compare just offense and only this year while at the same time talking about cherry picking?

So spare me this talk about RELEVANT comparisons, at least until you learn how to use the data.

Ryan Howard hasnt been a truly useful player since 2009.

[fan_since79]

I'd rather have Drew Stubbs than Revere. He wouldn't cost anything. 

 

Franklin Stubbs could probably hit better than half of our players.

[fan_since79]

This is really scary. Presently we have Ianetta, Cron, Joyce, and Kraus with lower OPS than Woods disastrous 2010 season. Granted Kraus's sample size us low but four others are still worse.

 

Emphasis on "scary". We're going to have to win a lot of 2-1 and 3-2 ballgames if we expect to contend. That's too much to ask from a pitching staff, especially as we get deep into the season, when pitchers start to tire.

[SoWhat]

Did someone really say suggest that. we trade for Drew Stubbs and even considered him better than Kole Calhoun?

I'm done with this thread.

[The Ghost of Bob Starr]

All I've gotten out of this thread is that Anaheim Stadium is a toilet for hitters.

God nearly everything about our franchise sucks, except Trout. The one silver lining in a torrential shit storm for 50 years l, except 2002.

[Inside Pitch]

i'd take these useless seasons any time

 

31 HRs  108 rbi   .859 ops

 

33 HRs   116 rbi   .835 ops

 

 

Useful player ...  Useless seasons..  same thing?   They got all of 2.4 bWAR from him those two years -- while paying 39 million. 

 

The Angels got  29/96 and 32/96 out of the 1B position those two years in a pitcher's park with lesser teams... But because defense matters the Angels two primary 1B those years combined for 5.9 bWAR.   Let's throw out Napoli's 2010 since he split his time between C and 1B -- Mark Trumbo managed 2.9 WAR on his own in 2011 while making 400K.

 

At least he was still a useful hitter, too bad he gave it all away defensively.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Inside Pitch

[Inside Pitch]

All I've gotten out of this thread is that Anaheim Stadium is a toilet for hitters.

God nearly everything about our franchise sucks, except Trout. The one silver lining in a torrential shit storm for 50 years l, except 2002.

 

It's pitcher friendly -- it suppresses power for LHB much more than RHBs.    For instance the HR index for LHB in Anaheim is 83. vs 90 for RHB.   Philly's park is sporting HR indexes of 114 for LHBs and 152 for RHBs -- 100 is normal.

HR indexes for Philly the previous three years; 126, 141, and 122.   

Edited May 22, 2015 by Inside Pitch

[tdawg87]

You're still using the total WAR of a guy who is going to be a DH. His defense is almost as bad as Cron's.

[Inside Pitch]

Well, WAR formulas change based on the position, it's not impossible his WAR would be lower as a DH.

[ukyah]

i'm with inside pitch on this one. you guys are giving in to desperation. howard is untradeable. revere is whatever, if you give up little to get him. 

[OregonLAA]

How can people watch what Cron and Joyce has given us and not think Revere and Howard couldn't help??? Obviously there are better candidates, but we can't wait too much longer to find out who will be available