Angels-Phillies discussing trade...

[HeavenlyHalos]

Pujols, Hamilton, THE REST OF OUR LINEUP sans Trout/Calhoun  < Ryan Howard.

 

I doubt we even trade for him, but he's leaps and bounds better than what we have.

 

The only way I get behind this is if the Phillies give us Revere and pay some of his contract AND we don't have to give up a top prospect.

 

Under those parameters, I'm fully on board.

 

Howard is not > Pujols.

[stormngt]

How is Howard not an improvement over Cron, Joyce, and Kraus.

the guy may suck in relation to his pay. But keep in mind who we have know. Ad bad had Hamilton was the last two years I still would prefer him in LF or Dh over the crap we got now.

yeah I don't see how Revere or Howard makes us a better team.

Howard was a serious DFA candidate going into the season. He's on a hot streak at the moment, but dude is on his last legs.

[Second Base]

There's nothing wrong with the data IP, but I think you're cherry picking a bit here.  That data doesn't tell the story, especially with Howard, it just tells you the result. 

 

Ryan Howard, former MVP, ludicrous contract, aging former star, great plate discipline and power, not so great contact or health.  

 

They all describe him.  In 2012, he was coming off a ruptured achilles tendon.  Fact is, you can't hit if you can't use your feet.  Just ask Albert.  So go ahed and throw that one out.  2013, Ryan Howard needs knee surgery, out 2 months and rehabbing/gaining strength the rest of the time.  Fact is, you can't hit if you can't use your knees.  Again, just ask Albert.  So go ahead and throw that one out.  2014, Ryan Howard finally gets to play a full season fully healthy, first time that's happened since 2011, he's bound to be rusty, and he DEFINITELY WAS.  He was just plain bad.  but on the bright side, his offense picked up a little in the second half of last year. 

 

What he's doing this year does not have me convinced that he's returned to form.  On the contrary, what he's done this year has me convinced that we're now seeing who Ryan Howard is in the downslope of his career.  He's going to hit 30 DB's for you, probably around 30 HR's too.  He also won't be able to play a darn bit of defense for you, he's strictly DH, and he probably won't hit for average and get on base too much either.  He just gives you raw power. 

 

Now if I want to cherry pick stats and compare two entities that absolutely shouldn't be compared, heck I could do that all day with you. For example...

 

Last three healthy seasons oWAR

Ryan Howard: 2.6, 2.5, 0.3 = 5.4

Collin Cowgill: 0.1, 0.1, 1.2 = 1.4

 

Yeah, those are ridiculous.  But the point is, you cannot compare Collin cowgill and Ryan Howard and expect not to be questioned.  Howard would only be an offensive acquisition, the guy won't be playing LF for the Angels, just like Collin Cowgill won't be playing 1B for the Angels.  Howard won't be a pinch runner, Cowgill would.  The only thing that matters, when comparing two entities that don't have much in common is comparing what  they DO have in common.  And what do Cowgill and Howard have in common?  

 

Offense.  That's the only way to compare them.  And this year, Cowgill's worth -0.2, and Howard's worth 0.4, and it's only May.  Meaning by the end of the year, at this rate Collin Cowgill will be worth -0.8 and Howard 1.6

 

Moral of the story, don't cherry pick stats, and use RELEVANT comparisons. 

[stormngt]

Was Brandon Wood ad bad as Joyce or Cron? I don't remember

this reminds me a little of when Brandon Wood didn't produce at 3B leaving a gaping hole; we had to fill a hole and did so with Alberto Callaspo

by going from almost zero production to almost league average production was a drastic upgrade for us

[eligrba]

Was Brandon Wood ad bad as Joyce or Cron? I don't remember

 

 

Joyce or Cron>Wood

 

It was a sad, frustrating and disappointing time.

 

Now I know how my parents must have felt when I grew up.

[Hardc0reFromDaStreetz]

actually howard is better than pujols, pujols doesn't even take walks anymore he instead rolls over ground outs.

[NrM]

 

 

So basically, you're wishing.  I've done it myself, I've just never tried to paint it as anything other than wishing.

 

You can ignore data if you please, stats are more a record of what happened than a predictor of future performance in many cases, but I've learned enough over the years to not ignore the numbers when they serve as warning signs.   It's having wished on guys that's led me to look for answers in the data when it didn't work out.  

 

If Ben Revere were even Orlando Palmiero I'd be in favor of making a play for him, but he isn't.  I'll admit I have a personal bias against empty batting averages, particularly at non glove positions like LF, but Revere is all perception and no production.  People keep talking about how he will improve the defense when he's shown himself to be a poor defender.  Sure he's quick, but he gets bad reads, takes poor routes and had no arm, its not just the metrics, it's the eye test for me..   As a back up OFer/pinch runner -- sure.  As an everyday player -- heaven help us.  People rail at the idea of having Aybar lead off but Revere is a good idea?  I can't even begin to wrap my mind around that one.

 

Ryan Howard has power, so did Josh Hamilton, unfortunately Angel Stadium plays the way it plays.   Nobody has said he doesn't have the power to hit it out of Anaheim, but there is no denying the park negatively impacts LHBs, to ignore it in favor of wishing....  well, THAT is laughable.  There is also the AL/NL thing, the recent history of injury and ineffectiveness, how many red flags do you need before you realize wishing might not be enough?

 

I mean, if you can get Howard for 5 mil per, fine but I doubt that's possible.  Dude has next year and a 10 mil buyout left for the year after that...  I seriously doubt that Amaro is willing to take on 50 mil of what he is due.

 

 

Also Angel stadium is where hitters go to die. I don't see how Revere's numbers don't take a big hit here.

[tdawg87]

Revere isn't a power hitter though, so I don't see it affecting him too much. Angels Stadium suppresses power numbers, but a hit is a hit in any stadium.

[tdawg87]

Except Fenway where you can doink a routine flyout into a double because that stadium is the Corky of baseball stadiums and Boston should be ashamed to play there.

[HeavenlyHalos]

actually howard is better than pujols, pujols doesn't even take walks anymore he instead rolls over ground outs.

 

Since 2012:

 

.236/.309/.422, OPS+ 101. HR% 4.0

 

.270/.329/.472, OPS+ 126. HR% 4.2

 

Which better do you think is better? Unless your entire argument boils down to stats this season, there is no way Howard is better than Pujols, and this isn't even accounting for defense.

[Second Base]

Brandon Wood was the biggest bust in baseball history, or at least recent baseball history.  Hideki Irabu was supposed to be amazing.  Arrived in the U.S. and had his a$$ handed to him.  Sent Japanese pitchers back a decade before MLB started taking them seriously again. 

[stormngt]

Woods 2010 his only full time season as an Angel

BA146.

OPS 596

Matt Joyce this year.

BA155.

OPS 439.

Joyce is presently having a worse year than Woods disastrous 2010 season

Joyce or Cron>Wood

It was a sad, frustrating and disappointing time.

Now I know how my parents must have felt when I grew up.

[KevinJ14]

Howard's HR was opposite field, off De La Rosa (a lefty).

[tomsred]

actually howard is better than pujols, pujols doesn't even take walks anymore he instead rolls over ground outs.

 

Pretty peceptive, I'm sure Howard never "rolled over ground outs."  I guess you missed the fact that Pujols has walked 15 times this year, or that he's played excellent defensive first base.

 

Some of you have to get over Pujols and the bucks he's paid.  If he does nothing more production wise this year, he's worth it in my opinion for one big glaring reason.  He's a perfect role model for Mike

Trout, both on and off the field.  If you want more production from him, put someone behind him who can actually be a hitting threat.

Edited May 21, 2015 by tomsred

[stormngt]

This is really scary. Presently we have Ianetta, Cron, Joyce, and Kraus with lower OPS than Woods disastrous 2010 season. Granted Kraus's sample size us low but four others are still worse.

[Make Angels Great Again]

Dear God NO Revere. I wouldn't take him for free.

 

He has gotten over 1 WAR once in his career which was in 2011. My grandmother has more power than him, he walks far less than even Hamilton, and plays shitty defense. The ONLY thing he has going for him is a decent career average of 289 and he can be expected to steal 30-40 bases. But that's only if he doesn't start sucking more when he moves from a neutral park to a pitcher's park, and from changing leagues.

 

I would literally rather play anyone else in left not named Joyce or Cron from either our current roster or from AAA.

[Chris]

has Raul Ibanez officially retired?  maybe we could bring him back...

[Hardc0reFromDaStreetz]

2 words. A Rod

[VariousCrap]

Ryu just had season ending surgery today.  I still think the Angels should talk to the Dodgers about Van Slyke or Ethier.  They may have to wait for Puig or Crawford to come back, but I think those two are better options.

[Inside Pitch]

Also Angel stadium is where hitters go to die. I don't see how Revere's numbers don't take a big hit here.

 

Angel Stadium would impact Howard's power, Ben Revere is a slappity slap singles hitter.  

[Homebrewer]

"Ryu just had season ending surgery today. I still think the Angels should talk to the Dodgers about Van Slyke or Ethier. They may have to wait for Puig or Crawford to come back, but I think those two are better options."

 

And the Giants just swept the Dogs, LA scoring 0 runs in 3 games at SF... They might be lead into doing something knee-jerk after that ..

[tdawg87]

Yeah but probably not by trading offense.

[stormngt]

I was going to name all the left handed power hitters that had success for the Angels. However all I could think of is GA and tiexera but Tiex was a switch hitter. Then I can't think of another until Reggie jackson.

Angel Stadium would impact Howard's power, Ben Revere is a slappity slap singles hitter.

[Glen]

Dear God NO Revere. I wouldn't take him for free.

He has gotten over 1 WAR once in his career which was in 2011. My grandmother has more power than him, he walks far less than even Hamilton, and plays shitty defense. The ONLY thing he has going for him is a decent career average of 289 and he can be expected to steal 30-40 bases. But that's only if he doesn't start sucking more when he moves from a neutral park to a pitcher's park, and from changing leagues.

I would literally rather play anyone else in left not named Joyce or Cron from either our current roster or from AAA.

But we are playing Joyce anD Cron.

[Erstad Grit]

I'd rather have Drew Stubbs than Revere. He wouldn't cost anything.