For those who support the trade

[ettin]

Robert, I appreciate your opinions here. Really thought out, but from an outsider's perspective.

 

In talking to internal folks and in the past with Jerry, I can tell you that what is perceived from a fan's perspective and what is viewed from opposing GM's and their current roster, $$$$, how they value our players and their offseason goals, -- what we the fans think and what is reality can be night and day sometimes.

 

In the case of Bourjos, it was indeed that, so he was moved to fill a void at another position that was on Dipoto's wish list this offseason. Calhoun was on Dipoto's/Scioscia radar to start in 2014 so Bourjos was a piece to move. We got a good, albeit not great 3B, but one that should vastly improve that black hole position wise.

 

I can't get into too many details and specifics on the board here, but knowing what I know about this deal and the work that went into dealing him prior to the Freese trade, we were not going to get a decent arm for Bourjos, whether major league ready or top prospect. It was on to plan B for Dipoto with regards to Bourjos.

 

Chuck,

 

I totally understand what you are saying and I know that there are things I'm not privy too that impact decision making in a very large way sometimes. I hope you see what I am saying about Bourjos' value though, it is not a mirage and we just gave up greater potential (and it was simply potential value at this point in time) value for likely more limited potential value.

 

To be honest I don't have a problem with acquiring Freese. I actually had him on my spreadsheet for my 'Hot Stove Trade Speculation' series when I was looking at the Cardinals as I felt he could provide more stability at 3B. So in that regard I don't mind seeing him here (although his back issue is a bit scary)..

 

In my opinion an OF of Trout (LF), Bourjos (CF), and Hamilton/Calhoun (RF/DH) was much more palatable (with Trumbo being traded). However my concern with Bourjos being traded is that the Angels FO is concerned about Hamilton's 2013 season and may feel that they need to keep Trumbo's bat more than Bourjos' broader skill set.

 

Either way it is done. I hope the Angels succeed in the rest of the offseason and put a quality team on the field to contend.

 

I appreciate your time as always Chuck, thanks for the response,

 

Robert

[Chuck]

Chuck,

 

I totally understand what you are saying and I know that there are things I'm not privy too that impact decision making in a very large way sometimes. I hope you see what I am saying about Bourjos' value though, it is not a mirage and we just gave up greater potential (and it was simply potential value at this point in time) value for likely more limited potential value.

 

To be honest I don't have a problem with acquiring Freese. I actually had him on my spreadsheet for my 'Hot Stove Trade Speculation' series when I was looking at the Cardinals as I felt he could provide more stability at 3B. So in that regard I don't mind seeing him here (although his back issue is a bit scary)..

 

In my opinion an OF of Trout (LF), Bourjos (CF), and Hamilton/Calhoun (RF/DH) was much more palatable (with Trumbo being traded). However my concern with Bourjos being traded is that the Angels FO is concerned about Hamilton's 2013 season and may feel that they need to keep Trumbo's bat more than Bourjos' broader skill set.

 

Either way it is done. I hope the Angels succeed in the rest of the offseason and put a quality team on the field to contend.

 

I appreciate your time as always Chuck, thanks for the response,

 

Robert

 

All good, Robert. I know all the stat guys love Bourjos, and I'm a big fan of his as well. I just think that if plan A (getting a SP for him) wasn't available and the FO does not want to trade Trumbo (maybe they think Baylor can fix his prolonged slumps and approach?) you gotta move on to plan B or C which was to get a upgrade at the hot corner this offseason.

 

The Angels went in looking to shore up three areas. Starting pitching, Bullpen and Third Base. It's pretty atrocious the lack of productivity we've gotten at the hot corner since Figgins' 2009 season, and before that, Troy Glaus.

[QuinlansMinion]

I dont think you can criticize the trade just yet.  We have needed an upgrade at 3rd for a long time.  Its not unrealistic to think Freese could hit over .800 OPS next season, and play great D at 3rd.  That would be a huge upgrade.  And were still solid in the Outfield.

 

Where is Bourjos going to play with Trumbo and Hamilton out there? 

[Brent Maguire]

The M's are very high on Seagar and have no need for a CF. It's all about who you mix and match with.

 

I would rather have Freese at 3B over Lucho or a Brennan Harris type, than have Bourjos on our bench as a 4th outfielder.

 

That's what it boils down for me.

No doubt. I actually threw out Freese's name as a guy I wanted earlier this offseason. I just assumed he wouldn't cost too much.

 

Getting Freese isn't the issue for me, I actually think he's a solid player at a position that we needed to fill. 

[Inside Pitch]

 

 

But please stop trying to convince me that this trade makes good baseball sense. I know value when I see it. Simple numbers show the potential lopsidedness of this trade in terms of player value and show even in the best case scenario that we overpaid a decent prospect in the deal, even if that prospect had no future home (we could have used him in another trade as the "icing on the cake" rather than waste him away to the Cardinals).

 

/end rant

 

 

You see the Zips projection for Grichuk?  If you haven't don't look you'll just get bent again...    Zips is typically very pessimistic with young players..  Still the numbers are quite damning.

 

pic.twitter.com/RtEmepHKlR

Edited November 25, 2013 by Inside Pitch

[ettin]

You see the Zips projection for Grichuk?  If you haven't don't look you'll just get bent again...    

 

pic.twitter.com/RtEmepHKlR

 

Thanks IP, you are good for my A-Fib.

 

P.S. Grichuk is a quality corner OF defender too! (Wait is that my rapid pulse rising?)

[stormngt]

All good, Robert. I know all the stat guys love Bourjos, and I'm a big fan of his as well. I just think that if plan A (getting a SP for him) wasn't available and the FO does not want to trade Trumbo (maybe they think Baylor can fix his prolonged slumps and approach?) you gotta move on to plan B or C which was to get a upgrade at the hot corner this offseason.

 

The Angels went in looking to shore up three areas. Starting pitching, Bullpen and Third Base. It's pretty atrocious the lack of productivity we've gotten at the hot corner since Figgins' 2009 season, and before that, Troy Glaus.

 

You are right, the Angels may not have been able to get a pitcher for Bourjos.  However, that doesn't mean you trade him.  We should have held on to him.  However, as you mentioned, the off season isn't over yet.  If this moves allows us to trade either Kendrick or Aybar for our starting pitcher needs than it will turn into a good move.  However, as I said, the trade isolated on its own is not a good one.

 

This trade also makes it clear that the front office did not want to trade Trumbo.

[AngelsLakersFan]

You see the Zips projection for Grichuk?  If you haven't don't look you'll just get bent again...    Zips is typically very pessimistic with young players..  Still the numbers are quite damning.

 

pic.twitter.com/RtEmepHKlR

 

ZiPs doesn't like Grichuk as much as it dislikes Freese. According to ZiPs the two best players in the trade are Bourjos & Grichuk... I think ZiPs is pretty neutral on Peter, but if Freese is that bad we got hosed. (For those who didn't click, ZiPs thinks Bourjos will be the better hitter next year)

[Dave Saltzer]

Chuck is right. I have talked with several scouts from other clubs and none of them saw Bourjos as equal to the value of a starting pitcher of the caliber that we would want/need. It's unfortunate, but, a reality. So, filling what would have been a terrible void at 3B into a serviceable solution (with a potential upside depending on the return to health) was a good use for Bourjos. I'm a bit more upset about losing Grichuk, but, I understand why an opposing GM would want him in the deal as insurance against the perceived injury status of Bourjos. 

 

Ettin, three things for you to consider:

 

1) In your analysis of the trade you didn't include the WAR from Calhoun. By trading Bourjos, we gain the value of Calhoun. Factor that into the trade and the value of the trade becomes better.

 

2) If we had kept Bourjos, he would not have played much, meaning that we could not have built up his trade value. We can't field a team with 4 OFers, a DH, and no 3B. The Angels would have started Calhoun over him at this point. So, the longer we waited, the less value Bourjos would have, making a trade even less likely. And, any playing time he would have would come at the expense of Calhoun, reducing his contributions to the team.

 

3) There is value in spreading the contributions to the team around the entire lineup, not just bunching it up in areas. That's because all players will go through slumps and streaks. By spreading the offense around, it makes it less likely that they all go through slumps and streaks at the same time. Prior to the trade, 3B would have been pretty much been a lost cause for the team. Our solutions at the time were far below replacement level. Now we are more likely to get production from that area, which will improve the team overall.

 

I'm not out jumping up and down calling this a great deal for the team. But, I'm not upset as a fan about it (although as I have said before, I'm more personally upset with losing two of the guys I liked the most in the organization). I recognize why it had to be done and believe we got about as much as we could for Bourjos based on what the trade market would bring. I think the team after the trade is better than the team was before the trade.

[Quinlanforthewin]

I don't like the Grichuck part but if Freese can be 2012 Freese we will all be very happy. He hit .290 with a .370 OBP. That was only one year ago.

 

Statements like these bring back memories of Wellsie and the majority of other FA hitters or hitters we acquire via trade.  You can basically always count on:

 

"Guys, It was only____years ago that_____wasn't quite as shitty as he is now."

 

Like I've said, I have no confidence that the hitters we acquire will actually improve once they come to Anaheim.  It just hasn't happened lately. 

Edited November 26, 2013 by Quinlanforthewin

[Chuck]

Statements like these bring back memories of Wellsie and the majority of other FA hitters or hitters we acquire via trade. You can basically always count on:

"Guys, It was only____years ago that_____wasn't quite as shitty as he is now."

Like I've said, I have no confidence that the hitters we acquire will actually improve once they come to Anaheim. It just hasn't happened lately.

You're such a Debbie Downer!

[Glen]

I dont think you can criticize the trade just yet.  We have needed an upgrade at 3rd for a long time.  Its not unrealistic to think Freese could hit over .800 OPS next season, and play great D at 3rd.  That would be a huge upgrade.  And were still solid in the Outfield.

 

Where is Bourjos going to play with Trumbo and Hamilton out there? 

 

 

 

Freese has had an OPS over .800 just once (not counting his first partial season).  It is unrealistic to expect him to do it again.  He's a career .783 OPS guy.  

[Inside Pitch]

ZiPs doesn't like Grichuk as much as it dislikes Freese. According to ZiPs the two best players in the trade are Bourjos & Grichuk... I think ZiPs is pretty neutral on Peter, but if Freese is that bad we got hosed. (For those who didn't click, ZiPs thinks Bourjos will be the better hitter next year)

Better hitter with more power.   The Grichuk projections are impressive given his age and experience, but not impressive on their own.  Funny how the systems that adjust for age and parks see Grichuk differently than the people quouting raw triple slash rates.

[Quinlanforthewin]

You're such a Debbie Downer!

 

And a Dick, am i right!

[Stradling]

And a Dick, am i right!

Yes. But if you admittedly have no faith in our offensive acquisitions then do us a favor and don't respond to posts that look at them with a positive light. By the way, I mentioned looking at 2012's version of Freese, we'll I'm guessing St. Louis is hoping for 2011's version of Peter.