Admittedly, total emotional post here...

[T.G.]

1 hour ago, stormngt said:

Lets be fair,  does Ortiz and Manny fail this often for Boston?

They're retired 

[khouse]

4 hours ago, Jason said:

That’s my whole point. The team has way too many needs to just put all their eggs into one basket 

Yeah...like Minasian spending on depth instead of signing Turner...

[T.G.]

58 minutes ago, Trendon said:

When he clogs up the DH spot that they could be using to keep players fresh

Damn him for clogging up the DH spot with his subpar hitting.

[REDneck]

13 minutes ago, T.G. said:

Damn him for clogging up the DH spot with his subpar hitting.

Losses bring the hate!

Wins bring the love!

[DMVol]

14 minutes ago, REDneck said:

Losses bring the hate!

Wins bring the love!

Victory has a thousand fathers….Defeat is an orphan….

John F. Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs

[T-angel]

5 hours ago, steveuk said:

People will criticise Arte if he doesn't get Ohtani signed up at 50m a year and yet, if the other pieces on the team are mediocre, it's going to stay that way if he commits over a third of payroll on just two players. 

The highest paid player this year on the Angels isn't even Trout or Ohtani. It's Rendon. I guess it's one half of the payroll on three players? 

[stormngt]

46 minutes ago, T.G. said:

They're retired 

Of course.  However when they teamed up in Boston ot seemed like they always came through in big moments.

As great as Trout and Ohtani has been, i havent noticed either of them carry the team when they need it the most.

[Swordsman78]

14 minutes ago, DMVol said:

Victory has a thousand fathers….Defeat is on Nevin….

-Angels Win and Twitter peeps.

FIFY

[Lou]

11 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Of course.  However when they teamed up in Boston ot seemed like they always came through in big moments.

As great as Trout and Ohtani has been, i havent noticed either of them carry the team when they need it the most.

They were cheaters.

[T.G.]

13 minutes ago, stormngt said:

Of course.  However when they teamed up in Boston ot seemed like they always came through in big moments.

As great as Trout and Ohtani has been, i havent noticed either of them carry the team when they need it the most.

The Sox also had guys like Johnny Damon, Pedro Martinez, Jason Varitek, Curt Schillng, Dustin Pedroia, and others

[stormngt]

10 minutes ago, Lou said:

They were cheaters.

Ok, so do you think Trout and Ohtani has been carrying the team like two of the best generationsl players should?

[stormngt]

10 minutes ago, T.G. said:

The Sox also had guys like Johnny Damon, Pedro Martinez, Jason Varitek, Curt Schillng, Dustin Pedroia, and others

I am not talking about best lineup.  I am talking about carrying the team.

 

[T.G.]

3 minutes ago, stormngt said:

I am not talking about best lineup.  I am talking about carrying the team.

 

Give me tangible examples of how they carried the Sox. 

[Duren, Duren]

A little pragmatic thinking. 

If Ohtani isn't resigned, you have to look forward. Not backwards wondering what might have been. 

To have a perennial contending team you need quality depth all around. Not just be top heavy with a few superstars and a roster of journeymen, over the hill veterans or unproven youth. 

There is an argument for building with an infusion of high end youth. Ideally,  all playing together in the minor leagues and getting to the big leagues around the same time. That means excellent drafting and development, shrewd trades, and smart scouting of younger guys on other teams with untapped potential. 

Usually it also requires a total rebuild. A gutting of a current roster. Which I doubt very much the Angels (Arte) will do. So if Ohtani leaves, they have to come up with a hybrid plan. And use their now increased budget (money intended for Ohtani)  wisely.

Ohtani as an individual can't be replaced. But there will be other free agents available. And players who will need to be traded for financial reasons. No point in going through lists now, but they will emerge as the season progresses. Signing/trading for multiple above average players to replace a superstar doesn't always work. But what other option do the Angels have? 

Renfroe, Drury, Urshella, Moniak (maybe Anderson) were positive additions. All except Moniak proven major leaguers.  If Perry can reach a little higher up with more money and sign two or three even better players then the lineup becomes deeper. 

Obviously a front of the rotation starter. Even an older veteran for two or three years till the Angel prospects mature. And a solid middle of the order hitter. Not necessarily a slugger. But someone with a good OPS, and/or speed, and can be productive. As well as use more resources to fill in areas of need. 

Remember, Ohtani as a hitter was a pure DH. If a quality position player is added, it allows for more versatility and positional changes. 

Ohtani will be hard to replace as a pitcher. But if a couple of good veterans are added then the rotation could be stronger overall. And tweaked back to a five rather than six day routine. 

I'm not saying these possibilities are ideal, but pragmatically there are a limited number of options. 

The image of the Angels will suffer. Plus supplementary income and a reduced fan base seem inevitable without Ohtani. But if they can put together a deeper, more rounded team for a few years it allows the farm system to grow and mature. 

 

 

[Slegnaac]

Ohtani has 90 Ks in 65 innings.

Detmers has 58 Ks in 45.2 innings

Sandoval has 34 Ks in 49.1 innings

Anderson has 30 Ks in 48.2 innings

Canning has 30 Ks in 36.1 innings

Edge: Ohtani

 

[T.G.]

1 minute ago, Slegnaac said:

Ohtani has 90 Ks in 65 innings.

Detmers has 58 Ks in 45.2 innings

Sandoval has 34 Ks in 49.1 innings

Anderson has 30 Ks in 48.2 innings

Canning has 30 Ks in 36.1 innings

Edge: Ohtani

 

But Ohtani “clogs up” the DH spot

[Taylor]

20 minutes ago, T.G. said:

But Ohtani “clogs up” the DH spot

I think the Ohtani criticism is people preparing their hearts for Ohtani's likely exit.

"Yeah, well, I never really liked the guy anyway!"

[Docwaukee]

2 hours ago, Swordsman78 said:

 The poor offense (especially by the 2-5 players is putting unfair pressure on every other aspect of the game to be perfect, or the game is lost.

what?  

the combo of those spots has a 119 wRC+ and ranks 5th overall in all of baseball.  

6-9 has an wRC+ of 98 and ranks 10th.  

1st in the order ranked 24th and only because Moniak has offset Ward a bit lately.  

The offense is far from poor.   Some guys aren't doing as well as they could but this is the best offense we've had in a decade and they're not even firing on all cylinders.  

SP and poor reliever performance in high leverage is killing this team.  The offense has a 129 wRC+ in high leverage.  5th best in baseball.  

[Swordsman78]

1 minute ago, Docwaukee said:

what?  

the combo of those spots has a 119 wRC+ and ranks 5th overall in all of baseball.  

6-9 has an wRC+ of 98 and ranks 10th.  

1st in the order ranked 24th and only because Moniak has offset Ward a bit lately.  

The offense is far from poor.   Some guys aren't doing as well as they could but this is the best offense we've had in a decade and they're not even firing on all cylinders.  

SP and poor reliever performance in high leverage is killing this team.  The offense has a 129 wRC+ in high leverage.  5th best in baseball.  

There are too many high leverage situations due to the offense not being able to put teams away because the 2-3 guys are below average in RISP, plus an obscenely high strikeout rate for future HOF players

[Docwaukee]

Just now, Swordsman78 said:

There are too many high leverage situations due to the offense not being able to put teams away because the 2-3 guys are below average in RISP, plus an obscenely high strikeout rate for future HOF players

now you're just making stuff up.  Trout ranks 32nd in k rate for qualified players.  Shohei ranks 79th.  Neither which is 'obscenely' high by any means.  

The Angels 2-3 spots have a 194 wRC+ in high leverage.  4th in baseball.  They have a 122 wRC+ with RISP.  avg. is 100.  They have a 155 wRC+ with runners on base.  3rd in baseball.  

you should stop.  

 

[Swordsman78]

2 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

now you're just making stuff up.  Trout ranks 32nd in k rate for qualified players.  Shohei ranks 79th.  Neither which is 'obscenely' high by any means.  

The Angels 2-3 spots have a 194 wRC+ in high leverage.  4th in baseball.  They have a 122 wRC+ with RISP.  avg. is 100.  They have a 155 wRC+ with runners on base.  3rd in baseball.  

you should stop.  

 

"How to lie through statistics".
 

Interesting read.  You must be a fan.  

[stormngt]

On 5/28/2023 at 12:27 PM, T.G. said:

Give me tangible examples of how they carried the Sox. 

I cant give tangibles.  I can just tell you that when the game was in the line it seemed very rare when one of the two didnt come up with a big hit.

Ortiz HR against Washburn

Manny Grand Slam against Frankie.  Those two situation come off the top of my head.

Edited May 30, 2023 by stormngt

[Sho Way That Was A Strike]

I think we are screwed either way. Ohtani resigns with us for like 10 years 500 mil or something and he pitches like… well every other pitcher we have. Maybe he has a few good years but then he’s mediocre. I mean do we expect him to win a CYA at 38 or something? And he’s probably going to have to give up the two way thing at some point. 
 

The other scenario is he leaves and ushers in a new era of success in New York or LA. 
 

I love Shohei. I mean look at my screen name. But I personally think the safest thing is to deal him. Don’t let him walk and don’t mortgage the future (do we even have a good one at this point) to keep him. 

[Farmbuildingfan]

I learned years ago that to maintain sanity as an Angel fan, I must be cynical and expect the worst.

When an Angel flirts with sustained productivity, the injured list will soon follow, as we see with Moore, O Hoppi and Rendon.

 I expect it but hope it does not happen.

So far, Trout and Ohtani have been healthy, but if they get hot...

 

 

[ScottT]

3 hours ago, Blarg said:

Thais at least came in as a pinch hitter and scored two runners. Ohtani went 0-4 and erased Trout twice, once on a fielders choice, the other on a double play. Ohtani was crap at the plate the last couple games so you really can't point your finger at the rookies, Moniak and Neto, going 0-8 when Ohtani and Renfroe went 0-9.  These are rookies, both probably should be still in AAA honing skills rather than trying to bail out a roster of failures and an IL Queen. Dropping the blame on them when the supposed best player since Babe Ruth hasn't done squat at the plate is a little hero worship over reality. 

Even Mike Trout and Shohei Ohtani have bad games.

It isn't easy to hit.

It's easy to catch a fly ball