Shortstop candidates for the Halos

[Blarg]

54 minutes ago, Stradling said:

It’s about adding depth. And a healthy Fletcher walked 4 times in 47 games this past season. 

The Angels have defensive player depth in Squid. They really don't need to add another guy that can't hit worth a crap. This is just adding another layer of players you don't want on the roster at a higher cost than what you currently have. 

[Dtwncbad]

If the Angels sign a SS that can really hit, the Neto situation is nothing but positive.

Guys that can hit AND play SS in the majors can play anywhere on the field.

Sorry if I am not horrified by having two really good players at the same time where one becomes the answer for another problem.

Maybe it’s Rendon plays 1B, Boegarts plays third and Neto is the SS.

Maybe it’s Correa at SS and Neto at 2B.

Maybe it’s Turner in the OF and Neto at SS.

You get the idea.

This is not something to actively avoid.

[Angels 1961]

19 minutes ago, Blarg said:

The Angels have defensive player depth in Squid. They really don't need to add another guy that can't hit worth a crap. This is just adding another layer of players you don't want on the roster at a higher cost than what you currently have. 

I agree, if halos do not a top SS or trade for Anderson, Rosario or maybe a Kim stick with what you have. I spend on another SP. Bassitt 4 years 78 mill. 

[Dtwncbad]

I will also mention that the Yankees had Derek Jeter and still brought in Alex Rodriguez and just put him at third (good shortstops can play other positions).

Rodriguez player over 1200 games at short and then logged 1194 games at third base.

Players want to be on the field and win.

I wouldn’t hesitate to land a premium offensive SS (if it makes sense at whatever price it takes).

It puts 2023 on another level and the position issue with Neto thereafter will resolve itself one way or another.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Dtwncbad

[Dtwncbad]

I obviously have an interest in boosting the offense by attacking the SS position aggressively.

But if the Angels added a different substantial bat at another position then attacking the SS position aggressively isn’t really necessary.

You can’t have a beast bat at every position.

So give me Nimmo and then address the SS position less aggressively?  Fine.

But I want the team to enter 2023 with the offense “fixed.”

Edited December 5, 2022 by Dtwncbad

[angelsnationtalk]

1 minute ago, Dtwncbad said:

I obviously have an interest in boosting the offense by attacking the SS position aggressively.

But if the Angels added a different substantial bat at another position then attacking the SS position aggressively isn’t really necessary.

You can’t have a beast bat at every position.

So give me Nimmo and then address the SS position less aggressively?  Fine.

But I want the team to enter 2023 with the offense “fixed.”

I think we're done adding pieces in the outfield, but I do wonder if Taylor Ward would be packaged for a top SS if the Angels went after Nimmo. 

Secondly, A Correa/Neto, Bogaerts/Neto, Swanson/Neto or Turner/Neto middle infield would be something special.

[Dtwncbad]

4 minutes ago, angelsnationtalk said:

I think we're done adding pieces in the outfield, but I do wonder if Taylor Ward would be packaged for a top SS if the Angels went after Nimmo. 

Secondly, A Correa/Neto, Bogaerts/Neto, Swanson/Neto or Turner/Neto middle infield would be something special.

I have no issue trading Ward.  He isn’t a youngster anymore and this is his highest trade value in 5 years.

[floplag]

20 hours ago, Stradling said:

I didn’t say that. I think they’ll sign a SS. But Torres, Anderson, Urshela, Renfroe along with bullpen additions put us in the playoffs. 

Perhaps. but does it make us competitive once we get there?   Thats the point.  
Im not a huge Torres guy myself, is he better than what we have, sure, at least offensively, but he seems more of a natural 2B based on how hes been used and we havent had the best of luck playing that game. 
I believe we need a strong SS on both sides to be the difference maker to support the young pitchers, not a bat first SS which to me is what he is as his stats defensively are far below the top guys.

[Stradling]

27 minutes ago, floplag said:

Perhaps. but does it make us competitive once we get there?   Thats the point.  
Im not a huge Torres guy myself, is he better than what we have, sure, at least offensively, but he seems more of a natural 2B based on how hes been used and we havent had the best of luck playing that game. 
I believe we need a strong SS on both sides to be the difference maker to support the young pitchers, not a bat first SS which to me is what he is as his stats defensively are far below the top guys.

Here is the thing.  If we sign a SS, it is going to be a 5-8 year commitment.  We will absolutely be above the tax threshold not just for this year, but for the next 4 years, until Rendon comes off the books, assuming we sign Ohtani.  That means in years 3 and 4 the new owner is paying a 50% tax on every dollar over the threshold and the new owner didn’t have a hand in actually picking the players that are on that roster.  So this is why I say a trade for a Torres type of guy is the smart move as it gets you a 3-4 WAR player for a couple of years at a reasonable price and allows the next owner to build his roster and to be the one that makes the financial decisions on whether or not he goes over the threshold.

[Ace-Of-Diamonds]

2 hours ago, Stradling said:

It’s about adding depth. And a healthy Fletcher walked 4 times in 47 games this past season. 

l would rather get a SS with at least a 100 OPS+ preferable 20% above that. Fletcher could be the depth.

[Warfarin]

11 hours ago, ThisismineScios said:

I am on board with this. If I'm spending $3 billion, why would I want a clean slate? Why wouldn't I want to come in with several stars already signed? People have been saying the Angels will have so many bloated contracts and it'll be awful. Please take a look at the Yankees, after the get Judge back. Stanton, Cole, Judge, and LeMahieu are all going to be under contract through 2026. Who in their right mind is making fun of them for this, or calling this outlandish? If the Angels have Trout, Rendon, can get Ohtani to stay, and sign a SS for 6-8 years, guess what? They have 4 good players under contract for the next 3-4 years. It's such an overrated idea that signing another big contract is inherently a bad thing. It's not! It's how you build a really good, really deep roster. 

Look at Atlanta--they just re-signed a bunch of guys. I promise you 2-3 of those contracts will look really bad in 2 years. But they are being lauded for it. If you CAN sign a really good player, you do it. If you can get Correa, you do it and get creative filling in the gaps via trade and solid margin signings. 

Exactly. The same thing applies to O'Hoppe. These guys are both studs--so far--but because our prospect well has run so dry, we overrate them. I would be all for them signing a catcher and not rushing O'Hoppe. In fact, I think it would be awesome for O'Hoppe to play at AAA with the following guys: 

O'Hoppe
Soto
Adell
Moniak
Bush
Silseth
C-Rod
Daniel
Crow
Torres
Murphy

Leave Neto, DiChiara, Paris, Jackson, and Adams at AA until they knock the door down. 

While I agree with your spirit, just a few points of clarification:

1.  We'll wait to see if Judge re-signs.  The Giants might poach him.  But assuming the Yankees do re-sign him ..

2.  The combined AAV of the guys you have mentioned (Stanton, Cole, LeMaheiu) is 76mil AAV.  Let's assuming that Judge gets 35mil AAV.  So that would be 111mil AAV for 4 players.  For us, even if we got Swanson (who most would be unhappy about) at a 25mil AAV, that would be 135mil AAV (I am assuming Ohtani gets 40mil AAV, but given how unique of a talent he is, he might even surpass that).  If we went after Turner or Correa, both of whom will probably get around 35mil AAV, that number becomes 145mil AAV.  That is not an insignificant difference, and while we are a big market team, we are obviously not the Yankees, either.

3.  I am glad you mentioned ATL.  ATL is the model I would aim for - they re-sign a lot of their YOUNG players to long deals, guaranteeing them their paydays early in exchange for what would be lower contracts than they would have accepted as free agents later, assuming health and whatnot.  A lot of those guys you mentioned have an AAV of 10-20mil.  Acuna is at 12.5mil AAV (!!!) and so is Strider (!!!).  That, IMO, is what this organization should be doing.  Notably, I think Minasian DID attempt to start doing this, but he did it with Fletcher - so we can obviously see how this plan might go wrong, but that said, even though Fletcher is under-performing, his 5mil AAV contract is hardly a detriment to anything we want to do.  I am hoping he is looking into doing this with Sandoval and Detmers - giving them a lifetime of security, up front now, in exchange for a lower payment if they were free agents later.

All that said, I am hopeful that when the next group takes over, they will pour tons of money into this team, and we can enjoy seeing them spend 250mil+ annually on payroll, along with (most importantly) significant financial investments into the player development pipeline and process.

[Warfarin]

 

42 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Here is the thing.  If we sign a SS, it is going to be a 5-8 year commitment.  We will absolutely be above the tax threshold not just for this year, but for the next 4 years, until Rendon comes off the books, assuming we sign Ohtani.  That means in years 3 and 4 the new owner is paying a 50% tax on every dollar over the threshold and the new owner didn’t have a hand in actually picking the players that are on that roster.  So this is why I say a trade for a Torres type of guy is the smart move as it gets you a 3-4 WAR player for a couple of years at a reasonable price and allows the next owner to build his roster and to be the one that makes the financial decisions on whether or not he goes over the threshold.

One of the hardest things to measure, in general, is opportunity cost.  It is easy to look at the market and say a Trea Turner or Carlos Correa will make this team significantly better.  They will, but the question will be at what future cost would having those contracts on our payroll have?  The Rendon contract weighs heavily on us now, and we just had to effectively spend about 5% of our payroll this year on an insurance policy for him (Urshela), such that 20-25% of our payroll is dedicated to one spot.

SS do not age well defensively, and it is almost a guarantee that these 4 SS options will probably only be at the peak of their game for another 2-3 years at most before a precipitous decline occurs.  And then, having a 35mil anchor on the payroll for another 4-5 years will, once again, weigh very heavily on this team, much like Pujols' contract weighed heavily on us for so many years.  

I have not forgotten all the poor long-term contracts we have had, and how heavily it has negatively influenced this team for so many years.  There are a number of SS we can acquire who will help this team quite a bit AND not crush our future financial flexibility.  Rosario, Anderson, and the like are not Turner/Correa, but they WILL definitely help this team, and we can use whatever money we have to address the other multiple holes we have, too (OF depth, RP, etc).

[Dtwncbad]

Turner to Phils.

Now there are three.

[Angels 1961]

4 minutes ago, Dtwncbad said:

Turner to Phils.

Now there are three.

I just hope after last top 3 are gone halos save money and do not sign Andrus type. I would sign another SP. Bassitt, Walker type. Then even if Ohtani leaves your rotation in 2024 should be solid. 

[Pancake Bear]

So, per Rosenthal, the Angels can afford to sign on of the big four. Turner - my top pick - is off the board. Of those left, my preference would be Bogaerts. He'll get less than Correa and fits our needs better, imo. 

As far as how it affects Ohtani, here's how I see it: There's no way a new owner wants their first move to be to let Ohtani walk. They will try to re-sign him and the money will be competitive. The only question is if he wants to come back, and that may put it down to whether the team wins. Which puts the impetus on winning this season, not in 5 years.

Also, for the "we can't displace Neto!!!" apologists, Bogaerts isn't a defensive wizard. It will be no problem to move him in a few seasons if Neto is ready. 

[floplag]

5 hours ago, Stradling said:

Here is the thing.  If we sign a SS, it is going to be a 5-8 year commitment.  We will absolutely be above the tax threshold not just for this year, but for the next 4 years, until Rendon comes off the books, assuming we sign Ohtani.  That means in years 3 and 4 the new owner is paying a 50% tax on every dollar over the threshold and the new owner didn’t have a hand in actually picking the players that are on that roster.  So this is why I say a trade for a Torres type of guy is the smart move as it gets you a 3-4 WAR player for a couple of years at a reasonable price and allows the next owner to build his roster and to be the one that makes the financial decisions on whether or not he goes over the threshold.

I get all that and your right, but it doesnt change the problem.  You trade fo a guy like Torres, or Adames, sure, youre better, and you stay under the tax, BUT, are you competitive enough to do anything other than play for a wildcard spot?  Does it help you keep Ohtani?  
If the tax is all were worried about then thats all well ever be.
Yeah, you bust the tax for a few years, but you keep Ohtani, generate revenue from playoffs and playing relevant baseball, and maybe balance all that out.
If all were orried about is the tax, then we should trade Ohtani now as he wont be staying. 

[Stradling]

1 minute ago, floplag said:

I get all that and your right, but it doesnt change the problem.  You trade fo a guy like Torres, or Adames, sure, youre better, and you stay under the tax, BUT, are you competitive enough to do anything other than play for a wildcard spot?  Does it help you keep Ohtani?  
If the tax is all were worried about then thats all well ever be.
Yeah, you bust the tax for a few years, but you keep Ohtani, generate revenue from playoffs and playing relevant baseball, and maybe balance all that out.
If all were orried about is the tax, then we should trade Ohtani now as he wont be staying. 

Ok.  Or you trade for a guy like Torres and if things play out and you are good, you make upgrades throughout the year.  If not, you trade Ohtani.  Either way at least then the new owner can actually make decisions on the roster.  

[floplag]

8 minutes ago, Stradling said:

Ok.  Or you trade for a guy like Torres and if things play out and you are good, you make upgrades throughout the year.  If not, you trade Ohtani.  Either way at least then the new owner can actually make decisions on the roster.  

Im sorry but this is like a time warp... "if things play out"... are we really playing that game still?   Every off season the same narrative, and it never in fact actually works out. 

[Stradling]

5 minutes ago, floplag said:

Im sorry but this is like a time warp... "if things play out"... are we really playing that game still?   Every off season the same narrative, and it never in fact actually works out. 

Ok, then we should spend big money on a free agent, since that has worked out so well.  You got me.  

[Warfarin]

17 minutes ago, floplag said:

I get all that and your right, but it doesnt change the problem.  You trade fo a guy like Torres, or Adames, sure, youre better, and you stay under the tax, BUT, are you competitive enough to do anything other than play for a wildcard spot?  Does it help you keep Ohtani?  
If the tax is all were worried about then thats all well ever be.
Yeah, you bust the tax for a few years, but you keep Ohtani, generate revenue from playoffs and playing relevant baseball, and maybe balance all that out.
If all were orried about is the tax, then we should trade Ohtani now as he wont be staying. 

Adames actually posted a superior fWAR to Correa in a similar amount of games - 4.7 vs 4.4.  I think Adames is pretty valuable.  He is not as good as Turner, but I think he's in the upper echelon.

[stormngt]

6 hours ago, floplag said:

Perhaps. but does it make us competitive once we get there?   Thats the point.  
Im not a huge Torres guy myself, is he better than what we have, sure, at least offensively, but he seems more of a natural 2B based on how hes been used and we havent had the best of luck playing that game. 
I believe we need a strong SS on both sides to be the difference maker to support the young pitchers, not a bat first SS which to me is what he is as his stats defensively are far below the top guys.

If he is more of 2b than let him play 2b.  Fletcher to bench and Velazquez at short for defense.

Trade Rengifo 

[ten ocho recon scout]

17 hours ago, Blarg said:

The Angels have defensive player depth in Squid. They really don't need to add another guy that can't hit worth a crap. This is just adding another layer of players you don't want on the roster at a higher cost than what you currently have. 

Getting another guy who can't hit to play there would be squid pro quo.

[Angel Oracle]

Adames is someone who could move to 3B when Neto is ready, as he shows the power hitting you like to see in a 3B.

[Warfarin]

3 hours ago, Angel Oracle said:

Adames is someone who could move to 3B when Neto is ready, as he shows the power hitting you like to see in a 3B.

A lot of his value is tied to SS defense.  I don't think it'd be much of an issue, though, as he has only 2 years of control left.  Neto probably won't be ready until sometime in 2024, and if we had Adames, we could probably slow Neto's progression down to a more reasonable rate as well.

[floplag]

17 hours ago, Stradling said:

Ok, then we should spend big money on a free agent, since that has worked out so well.  You got me.  

There is no position on this you wont argue, but the point is simple, for once we ned to finish the job.  In the past we made the splash and let hole elsewhere filled with clean peanuts, or went cheap and stayed dry, so far this off season we have in my view made al the right moves so far that just needs to bow on top. 
Will they do it, probably not, but if they did it would make a tremendous difference.