What is the minimum trade package you'd accept for Ohtani right now (if you were Perry Minasian)?

[AngelsLakersFan]

1 hour ago, Jeff Fletcher said:

That’s where I disagree. I think the Angels want to win in 2023. So if they’re going to trade Ohtani it has to be for someone or some package that makes them almost as good in 23 as they would be with Ohtani. 

Yes, you can argue that even if the players you acquire alone don’t make you better you can still get better with the money you save on Ohtani, but I still think they want the package itself to be as good as possible in 2023.

 

This isn’t referring to you Jeff but if the team feels that way they are more screwed up than I thought. If you want to win in 2023 then you don’t trade Ohtani. If they think the key to winning next year is trading Ohtani then they should seek help.

Probably the worst thing they could do is trade Ohtani for short term assets.

[ThisismineScios]

I don’t think Lux and May is enough for the Angels. You have to really convince Arte. “Youre getting our SS of the future, a mainstay in our rotation, and our Catcher/OF of the future as well as a really good pitching prospect.” He may not care about what we trade Heaney, Watson, Thor, et al for. But HE has to be convinced by the return, meaning it has to be so over the top good for next year and beyond that even Arte says yes. It’s not really about what Ohtani is worth; it’s about what he’s worth to Arte. 

[AngelsFaninGA]

29 minutes ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

This isn’t referring to you Jeff but if the team feels that way they are more screwed up than I thought. If you want to win in 2023 then you don’t trade Ohtani. If they think the key to winning next year is trading Ohtani then they should seek help.

Probably the worst thing they could do is trade Ohtani for short term assets.

I can't think of a single package that gets you close to Ohtani's value in 2023, if that's the goal. Gonsolin and Lux are both inferior to Ohtani as a pitcher and hitter, respectively. You'd need Miller and Cartaya on top of that at a minimum. 

[BTH]

19 minutes ago, ThisismineScios said:

I don’t think Lux and May is enough for the Angels. You have to really convince Arte. “Youre getting our SS of the future, a mainstay in our rotation, and our Catcher/OF of the future as well as a really good pitching prospect.” He may not care about what we trade Heaney, Watson, Thor, et al for. But HE has to be convinced by the return, meaning it has to be so over the top good for next year and beyond that even Arte says yes. It’s not really about what Ohtani is worth; it’s about what he’s worth to Arte. 

Yeah, it’s more like Lux, May, and two more top prospects.

I’d say one of Busch/Vargas and a pitcher like Pepiot/Stone.

[AngelStew43]

When I listed the six Dodgers players/prospects that I thought Perry should ask for, I already knew that we could never get equal value for Ohtani.  

The reason why I listed the six is that I wanted that hypothetical trade to create depth throughout the Angels roster.  

In getting the six, we would have 2 pitchers to step in to the rotation in May and White.  Two infielders, one of which would be our regular SS.  (Lux.)

The other two players, Busch and Miller, would immediately become our top 2 prospects, and would likely battle for roster spots in 2023.  

If LA asked for another player to balance this out, I would offer Barria or Iglesias to them.  We really aren't using Iglesias enough to justify having a top closer, and by next season that roll could be filled by Sam Bachman or Ben Joyce. 

As far as Cartaya goes, he's blocked in LA, in our system, he'd be the number 1 catcher in SLC. 

[Angels 1961]

I hope Dodgers and SD miss out on Soto. Both could have bidding war for Ohtani.

[Angels 1961]

33 minutes ago, AngelStew43 said:

When I listed the six Dodgers players/prospects that I thought Perry should ask for, I already knew that we could never get equal value for Ohtani.  

The reason why I listed the six is that I wanted that hypothetical trade to create depth throughout the Angels roster.  

In getting the six, we would have 2 pitchers to step in to the rotation in May and White.  Two infielders, one of which would be our regular SS.  (Lux.)

The other two players, Busch and Miller, would immediately become our top 2 prospects, and would likely battle for roster spots in 2023.  

If LA asked for another player to balance this out, I would offer Barria or Iglesias to them.  We really aren't using Iglesias enough to justify having a top closer, and by next season that roll could be filled by Sam Bachman or Ben Joyce. 

As far as Cartaya goes, he's blocked in LA, in our system, he'd be the number 1 catcher in SLC. 

Barria, Loup and even Tepera

[AngelStew43]

10 minutes ago, Angels 1961 said:

Barria, Loup and even Tepera

LA is having bullpen issues, as bad as we are, so I figured that there would be some interest in them acquiring Iglesias.  As I mentioned, we should have Bachman and Joyce ready to contend for bullpen jobs in 2023.  

[cals]

1 hour ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

This isn’t referring to you Jeff but if the team feels that way they are more screwed up than I thought. If you want to win in 2023 then you don’t trade Ohtani. If they think the key to winning next year is trading Ohtani then they should seek help.

Probably the worst thing they could do is trade Ohtani for short term assets.

Agree 100%.  If this team thinks it’s going to win in 2023 it’s on crack, but even arguing there is a chance, it’s going to take bold buyer trades and spending a ton of cash.  If we are the only ones who see this team needs a major reset then El Grande Armeniano is dumber than I was giving him credit for.

[Angels 1961]

1 minute ago, AngelStew43 said:

LA is having bullpen issues, as bad as we are, so I figured that there would be some interest in them acquiring Iglesias.  As I mentioned, we should have Bachman and Joyce ready to contend for bullpen jobs in 2023.  

3 more years do not know if Dodgers take that on. Yeah, send them Raisel. Hopefully Chris Rod will be back

[Angels 1961]

 Fans do not realize Ohtani is going to test FA. Look what Nats are doing with Soto and he has 2 years of team control after this season.

[failos]

8 hours ago, Angelsjunky said:

It saddens me that @Docwaukee, @Inside Pitch, @Second Base, @rafibomb, @totdprods, @T.G., @ten ocho recon scout, @tdawg87, @WicketMaiden, @Blarg, @failos and other forum regulars haven't voted. Come on, guys, put your nuts on the chopping block.

Forgive me if I didn't include you in that list - those are just the folks that came to mind. 

Man, I just think this subject is played out. Whatever, I’ll vote.

[Docwaukee]

2 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

This isn’t referring to you Jeff but if the team feels that way they are more screwed up than I thought. If you want to win in 2023 then you don’t trade Ohtani. If they think the key to winning next year is trading Ohtani then they should seek help.

Probably the worst thing they could do is trade Ohtani for short term assets.

I agree with you and @Jeff Fletcher

There are plenty of opportunities to double, triple and quadruple down on so many poor decisions they've made over he past decade.  

I think Jeff is absolutely correct that they have every intention of winning in 2023.  

So for that to happen, you can't just win an Ohtani trade, but you'd have to completely lay waste to another franchise.  Which I don't think will happen.  

What I do think they'll settle on is keeping Ohtani for another year and deluding themselves and everyone else that they can fix all the problems by the time March rolls around.  Stassi and Marsh and Adell and Walsh and Fletcher will all come around.  Trout and Rendon will heal up.  Stefanic will make some progress.  Rengifo will improve.  Loup and Tepera and Iglesias are just suffering from typical reliever volatility and will turn things around next year.  Ohtani, Sandoval, Detmers and Silseth will anchor the rotation next year.  

Oh and Arte will open up the check book.  

And all of it will be mostly BS but here's the thing.  They could never get the full value that they need from trading Ohtani right now.  The full value they would want in order to remain competitive.  

Now if the team is predictably out of contention this time next year and they sit on their hands and Ohtani walks?  Then they will have fallen off the scale of mind numbing ineptitude with the lack of self awareness reaching something beyond just a pattern of poor decision making but to a level where the FBI would need to open a case file and use it as a teaching aid for new recruits.  

So here is the proper narrative as it stands.  No one could pay what the Angels need in return.  Could a team give appropriate value?  Yes.  But it wouldn't be enough to accomplish what they're going to try to accomplish by this time next year.  And even if it were close and better for the long term viability of the club, the franchise would still rather keep Ohtani for now.  If you ask why, then you haven't been paying attention for the last decade.  

Then it becomes one of two options.  

Keep him and hope for a magical off season and progression of young players and a rebound of others to where we're in a WC spot this time next year and it actually seems sustainable.  I'm not even gonna try to weigh the odd of this.  It's non zero.  

Or, they get to July of 2023 and they're 10 GB of the WC and finally realize they need to cut their losses and move him whereby I think they would still get a fairly impressive return because anyone who trades for Shohei at that point would only do so under the guise of signing him long term.  It would be a requirement as the return for the halos would be absolutely contingent up on it.  

The right decision is to keep him for the time being.  Because it kinda helps this franchise save themselves from making a really terrible short-sighted trade.  

[Jeff Fletcher]

2 hours ago, AngelsLakersFan said:

This isn’t referring to you Jeff but if the team feels that way they are more screwed up than I thought. If you want to win in 2023 then you don’t trade Ohtani. If they think the key to winning next year is trading Ohtani then they should seek help.

Probably the worst thing they could do is trade Ohtani for short term assets.

I agree. That’s why they’re not going to trade him. No team is going to give up what the Angels need. 
 

I just don’t believe the Angels can justify losing Ohtani in 2023 (on the field and financially) for a bunch of maybes, no matter what Baseball America May think of them. They need the kind of players that no team will give up. 

[cals]

It doesn’t have to be a trade with a single team.  If it happens I envision a multi-team trade.

[cals]

Otherwise I agree no single team will give up enough to make the Angels do it.

[Docwaukee]

8 minutes ago, cals said:

It doesn’t have to be a trade with a single team.  If it happens I envision a multi-team trade.

If we're getting creative, it should be multiple teams with multiple players from the halos where the only way they could achieve proper value is to off load some payroll and upgrade in other spots as well.  

[beatlesrule]

@AngelsjunkyIs your poll assuming Moreno gives the go ahead to trade Ohtani? History has shown us that he doesn't trade superstars. He wants them on his team. Therefore, I don't see Moreno trading away Ohtani unless he makes it crystal clear he is not going to resign and Moreno can get another superstar in return. If that is the case, I still don't see any trade happening until next trade deadline. I will give my answer once you make it clear.

[cals]

15 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

If we're getting creative, it should be multiple teams with multiple players from the halos where the only way they could achieve proper value is to off load some payroll and upgrade in other spots as well.  

I agree.

Somewhere out there there is a GM who can use the pieces available and pull something like that off. Not sure it’s our current guy.

But if there ever was a player you could use as the centerpiece of a trade that could immediately reshape a troubled franchise, it’s Ohtani.

My vote is trade him if that opportunity arises.  My expectation is that they don’t trade him and lose him to free agency for nothing but they’ll have lots of excuses that are basically CYA and Strad will be bitchy to anyone who questions them.

[cals]

Because unlike Trout I think Ohtani assumes (probably correctly) that the Angels are not a team with whom he can win, even if he likes it here and even though I’m sure he truly appreciates that the Angels gave him the unique opportunity to prove he could thrive as a two-way player.

 I think winning is important enough to him that even if Moreno offers a truckload of money, he knows what many of the rest of us know:  His chances of regular playoff appearances is much better some place else.

[Inside Pitch]

53 minutes ago, Docwaukee said:

I agree with you and @Jeff Fletcher

There are plenty of opportunities to double, triple and quadruple down on so many poor decisions they've made over he past decade.  

I think Jeff is absolutely correct that they have every intention of winning in 2023.  

So for that to happen, you can't just win an Ohtani trade, but you'd have to completely lay waste to another franchise.  Which I don't think will happen.  

What I do think they'll settle on is keeping Ohtani for another year and deluding themselves and everyone else that they can fix all the problems by the time March rolls around.  Stassi and Marsh and Adell and Walsh and Fletcher will all come around.  Trout and Rendon will heal up.  Stefanic will make some progress.  Rengifo will improve.  Loup and Tepera and Iglesias are just suffering from typical reliever volatility and will turn things around next year.  Ohtani, Sandoval, Detmers and Silseth will anchor the rotation next year.  

Oh and Arte will open up the check book.  

And all of it will be mostly BS but here's the thing.  They could never get the full value that they need from trading Ohtani right now.  The full value they would want in order to remain competitive.  

Now if the team is predictably out of contention this time next year and they sit on their hands and Ohtani walks?  Then they will have fallen off the scale of mind numbing ineptitude with the lack of self awareness reaching something beyond just a pattern of poor decision making but to a level where the FBI would need to open a case file and use it as a teaching aid for new recruits.  

So here is the proper narrative as it stands.  No one could pay what the Angels need in return.  Could a team give appropriate value?  Yes.  But it wouldn't be enough to accomplish what they're going to try to accomplish by this time next year.  And even if it were close and better for the long term viability of the club, the franchise would still rather keep Ohtani for now.  If you ask why, then you haven't been paying attention for the last decade.  

Then it becomes one of two options.  

Keep him and hope for a magical off season and progression of young players and a rebound of others to where we're in a WC spot this time next year and it actually seems sustainable.  I'm not even gonna try to weigh the odd of this.  It's non zero.  

Or, they get to July of 2023 and they're 10 GB of the WC and finally realize they need to cut their losses and move him whereby I think they would still get a fairly impressive return because anyone who trades for Shohei at that point would only do so under the guise of signing him long term.  It would be a requirement as the return for the halos would be absolutely contingent up on it.  

The right decision is to keep him for the time being.  Because it kinda helps this franchise save themselves from making a really terrible short-sighted trade.  

What he said.

Sorry AJ, I wasn't ignoring so much it's just avoidance.  I just see any Ohtani trade as a sign of their ultimate failure.  

Truth is I've reached the point where I no longer care.  What I think they should do or want them to do they never do, and what they have done just aggravates me.  The history of trading superstars speaks for itself.

I'm sure I'd give it a lot more thought over the winter.

 

[Docwaukee]

super stupid blockbuster because I'm bored and tired and this year has been super lame.  

@Angelsjunky - You mentioned bmore and I think they're one of the few that could actually satisfy me because they've got some guys at the major league level, prospects, and payroll.  

So here's my completely worthless trade idea that would never happen because it's just way too one sided or at least way too complicated.  

First off, you'd have to convince them that they could make a run.  Up and coming teams don't usually sell the farm for 'a shot'.  But again, WTF else do I have to post these days.  

So here it goes and I'll start slow:

Halos trade

Ohtani
Syndergaard
Lorenzen
Walsh
Stassi
Fletcher
Rendon
Tepera or Loup

Ohtani agrees to a long term deal with Bmore.  

Angels get:

Mountcastle
Rutschman 
Gunnar Henderson 
Grayson Rodriguez
Colt Cowser
One of Jordan Westburg or Terrin Vavra

There's probably some evening out I'll have to look at and I would still consider this without the inclusion of Rendon which would likely kill it before it starts.  Maybe I'll plug it into the trade thing with and without for kicks.  

 

[Docwaukee]

yep.  even without Rendon, it's ridiculously lopsided.  But let's say it didn't include Rendon.  This is the type of deal I would need to feel satisfied.  Sorry if that's unreasonable.  But if the other side doesn't like it, they can go F themselves.  They're getting Shohei.  

[cals]

Let’s not ignore that it’s not like they scouted and developed a generational talent.  They schmoozed him with the opportunity to do what he’s done and a promise of winning that they’ve failed greatly at providing.

He’s an Angel but it IS different than trading Trout in 2017 or Griffey at age 24/25.

It’s a sad admission and position to take but the Angels can use his mistake in choosing them to rebuild the team practically instantly. 

[cals]

And I say these things when he’s my favorite player to watch and the only reason I tune in these days. It would be a tough pill to swallow, but eventually we will get over it if produces results.